Couples, Tech, and Taking the Leap: Escapee Lessons from Heather McLean

Brett Trainor (: 00:01

Hi Heather, welcome to the Corporate Escapee Podcast.

Heather McLean (: 00:04

Thanks, Brett. I'm really happy to be here. I've been excited to have this chat with you.

Brett Trainor (: 00:09

Yeah. And I appreciate your flexibility. we're going to make this one, anytime I've had to delay, they've come back even stronger as good, episodes. So I feel really good about where we're, where we're going to go with this thing. yeah, I think as I love guests to be escapees, right. Sharing their journey. even if we talk about it for a couple of minutes, but I think your, your journey is interesting because you're now doing it as a couple. You decide not to do a solo business. You started actually a real business. I don't want to say real business.

Heather McLean (: 00:20

Good, that sounds good.

Heather McLean (: 00:34

Thank you.

Brett Trainor (: 00:38

bigger business, right, with bigger goals. And you're also in the AI space, which I'm super bullish on for GenX. So I thought if we could kind of let's review your journey, let's pull your lessons out of this, maybe some things you would have done differently. So folks that are still in corporate can learn and then dig into the AI for a little bit at the tail end of it. How's that sound? Awesome. All right. Well, let's go back to, well, when did you escape corporate?

Heather McLean (: 00:40

Right.

Heather McLean (: 01:00

Sounds great. Let's do it.

Heather McLean (: 01:06

It was just a little over a year ago.

Brett Trainor (: 01:08

Okay. So relatively new, which I did know that, it's, which it's interesting because I always like to give a different perspective of, know, we've had folks that have been on their journey for seven years, others for, I think we, this may be the shortest journey. So it's really going to be good to get your perspective. And I know you've had some success early on, which is, which is always a good thing. so what were you doing before you started the business? What was, what's your background?

Heather McLean (: 01:10

Mm-hmm.

Heather McLean (: 01:33

I worked for a global IT company and I was running a 400 person software development organization with a group within that organization. And like we were building all sorts of cool tech. So I've actually worked on projects. Like if you've ever ordered a sandwich on Jersey Mike's, like my team built that app and it's just amazing. You know, so we've worked with companies you've heard of. We worked with St. Jude's hospital. We worked with the NASCAR organization. I mean, it just was all over the place.

And I wanted to bring all that knowledge to my new company and, you know, give it a go on my own.

Brett Trainor (: 02:08

Yeah. So was that what it was? You just, you just felt the calling that I want to do something else and it wasn't necessarily the job wasn't, yeah. Where was your mindset then is obviously you were thinking about it.

Heather McLean (: 02:17

Yeah, it was definitely more than that. I I was in 10 hours of back-to-back meetings a day. It was pretty grueling. I think I was burnt out, although really didn't have a concept of, know, just didn't know it at the time. You know, so probably stories you've heard over and over and it just, I went through some pretty rough times with having to let some folks go and really just my business partner and I looked at each other one day and we were like,

We just need to do this ourselves. We know we can do this like the way we want to do this. We have all this expertise. We've built amazing technology. We can do this. And we did one Saturday. just, you know, I went over to her house and we formed our LLC and then it was kind of, it was on from there. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 03:02

off and running. love to hear those stories because I was kind of the same way. I just hit the breaking point. Mine was more frustration and a little bit of resentment about the thing. And I just like, I'm done. But it kind of crumbled over a little bit of time, but I knew it was coming. So when you started having that idea was literally you said, let's meet on Saturday, came up with the idea, then quit your job the next week. Or what was kind of the...

Heather McLean (: 03:09

Yeah.

Heather McLean (: 03:13

Yeah, there was some of that too.

Heather McLean (: 03:22

No, yet it kind of percolated the business percolated on the side for a while. We were interested in pursuing government contracts. So I was going down the route of getting my SBA certifications, which we now have, but those took forever. So it was probably nine months after reform the LLC that I actually left. It was just an opportunity with things going on at the company. And I was like, here's my out, let's do it. And, you know, rest is history.

Brett Trainor (: 03:46

Yeah.

Did you have a customer lined up when you started or was it you're just like, when we go, we're going to, nah, that's okay.

Heather McLean (: 03:53

Nope. You know, my husband and I had saved a little bit of money and so we knew we could make it for so, you know, maybe six months to a year. And so we really just decided to take it. It was a huge leap of faith actually for us, but I was ready for something new, you know, ready to do something different and had seen a lot of people go out on their own and been successful. So I think I had some, you know, success to go off of there.

Brett Trainor (: 04:18

Yeah, that's, it's, it's interesting. So you go live, maybe walk. Was your thought even back then you wanted to start a company that's going to hire employees where you think, and this is something the two of us can do. We can make some pretty good money. Did you have kind of a vision? I'm sure it's probably changed or.

Heather McLean (: 04:33

Yeah, I definitely knew I wanted to create a company where I could bring in my great network of people, know, great people that I know that, you know, create a great company where everybody's going to want to come work. And, and you, it's hard to build great tech by yourself. It's really a team kind of adventure. So I knew I'd have to bring in folks. And so that was definitely the long-term vision. And, you know, we're about to hire four employees this year, this first quarter. And I feel like it's.

You know, even in just a year, it's coming to fruition for us.

Brett Trainor (: 05:05

fantastic and I always get the question so I have to ask you is how did you get the the first customers what because if you don't this is a brand new business you can leverage your corporate experience but you don't have the business so what was what was that process like

Heather McLean (: 05:13

Right.

Heather McLean (: 05:19

Right. It was really leveraging my network. mean, every and everybody has since told me this as well. Leverage your network. So I had people out there who knew we could, you know, knew me, knew what I could build and had confidence in my leadership. And, know, I had a couple of folks who took a chance on, you know, an engagement with us. Some other work we just bid on, we did a IT and data strategy for a small city government.

And we won the bid and so that kind of got us into that work. But mostly it's been our network that has really led to this first year of business for us.

Brett Trainor (: 05:56

Yeah, that's interesting. Did you position it and say, hey, I'm starting something new? Do you know any? And I'm sorry to get tactical, but it's the questions we get. So was it?

Heather McLean (: 06:02

yeah. And it's really awkward at first, right? Cause you're reaching out to people who you've worked with, who you, you know, you think you have a relationship, but you're basically saying, can you help me? You have to be a little vulnerable and you say, Hey, I'm doing this. This is new. And I'm looking for some help. I'm looking for work. know, even if you, they can't help you, they might know someone who can help you, you know, and you know, it might come in to play six months later where they're like, Hey, I remembered this. I remember you were looking for

connections and then they pass you somebody who becomes a good lead. So definitely work that network. It was more important than I thought it was. I think I underestimated it little bit.

Brett Trainor (: 06:41

So true. get, because I've told this story before where I didn't tell anybody for two years after I went solo. Right. And that was just a big mistake. And I don't, in hindsight, I'm not a hundred percent sure why I did that, but it created it. I just had to work twice as hard, right. Cause it was one-on-one through networks and folks. So, you know, it's interesting. I just had, Tom on the podcast. He's,

Heather McLean (: 06:57

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 07:05

another one of the Storybrand coaches, guides, now coach, but he ran or worked in a church, a large church for 20 years. He's like, it was almost mini corporate, everything he going through. Where in this episode will come out just before this one. But what he told me is when he was leveraging his network, he was looking, not looking, but took advantage of the sympathy.

Heather McLean (: 07:15

wow.

Brett Trainor (: 07:25

The sympathy connection, but yeah, I know you, I like you. I'll give you a chance. And he played, not played off of the sympathy, but he's like that sometimes that's just what you need to get the momentum going. They'll take a leap of faith on you.

Heather McLean (: 07:30

All

Heather McLean (: 07:36

Right.

Right, mean, know, people, customers buy from you because they like you, right? It's a little psychological. And so, you know, maybe, you know, you need to leverage that likeability a little bit and people that already have respect for you and know that you can do a good job. Those are probably going to be some of your best first customers.

Brett Trainor (: 07:58

Yeah. I mean, maybe it's just the string of the podcast I've had, but I had Deanna Russo on just the other day and she's LinkedIn, but she's, she talks a lot about know, like, and trust. And we went deep in how to use LinkedIn, but you know, it made sense when she said it, but I just, the more, and like talking to you and I talked to Tom, it is the no, they find the people that know you, find the people that like you and trust you. know you're a good person. They may not know and trust you within what you're building, but you're going to get the benefit of the doubt and start to build off.

Heather McLean (: 08:07

All

Heather McLean (: 08:26

Yeah, you get that foot in the door and then really it's on you to show the value at that point.

Brett Trainor (: 08:32

Yeah. all right, so let's get the first customer. And did you learn all your how you priced it based on what you were doing in corporate and just kind of followed that what you had learned? Okay.

Heather McLean (: 08:40

Right. Right. I was lucky in corporate that I was part of a senior leadership team where we were looking at, financials of the, of the group that we were in. were pricing out. was involved in contract writing pricing. I reviewed the contracts before they went out to customers. So it was kind of, kind of set me up for success there because I already knew how to do all that stuff. So I had at least confidence in, in being able to get that piece of the business up and going now.

still had to learn a ton about keeping the books and all that stuff. And as you know, that's a huge learning curve, but I think I was well prepared based on my corporate experience.

Brett Trainor (: 09:12

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 09:20

And that's the beauty we have as GenXers is we've got 20 years. So even if it's just to get the, to your, you've said, get the momentum, get the foot in the door, leverage everything, you know, and then if it's not exactly what you like, then you could figure out ways to, move on or improve or pivot or whatever. Now, maybe I don't think we asked specifically, what do you, what is your business? Are you doing the work or do you have a team that does the work? I know you talk software. So are you the programmer developer or are you the strategy?

Heather McLean (: 09:28

Right.

Heather McLean (: 09:35

Right?

Heather McLean (: 09:45

Mm-hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 09:49

maybe tell us a little bit about that.

Heather McLean (: 09:49

Right. Yeah, I don't have like an engineering technical background, but I had been building technology for 10 to 15 years now. I'm more on the leadership, programmatic management side. sorry, I need to take a sip here.

Brett Trainor (: 10:09

We'll cut that out.

Heather McLean (: 10:10

Okay, maybe could repeat the question. Sorry about that.

Brett Trainor (: 10:14

you had the technical leadership and kind of your background and did you have to hire somebody to come and do what is your business essentially?

Heather McLean (: 10:23

Got it. Yeah. So yeah, my background is not in like technical engineering, although I've been building technology for, you know, over 10 years and just building some amazing projects. My background is in logistics management, leadership, and overall just project and program management. So what we do though is we are passionate about AI and emerging technology. It's the space we want to be in. So that, you know, that also involves software development. It also involves data and IT strategies.

and kind of all encompassing, but the area we're most focusing on right now is that emerging technology space and generative AI to be very specific.

Brett Trainor (: 11:04

Yeah, that's interesting. if the customers, I know you mentioned government, are these same types of companies you were working with in corporate or is this, did you go down a step to find some maybe growth companies where, how did you?

Heather McLean (: 11:17

Right. We're mostly working with partners right now in the commercial space. It's taking a long time to really get some traction in the government, even though I'm retired Air Force, my husband's retired Air Force, and we spent many, many years in government. It's still, it's really kind of hard to break in because you've got to have some great past performance really to show the government that you can do that. So we're still...

continuing to pursue those things, but most of our work so far has been in the commercial space. And that was just everything that I had done in my last position. So it was very.

Brett Trainor (: 11:48

Got it.

Brett Trainor (: 11:53

Makes sense. then when you brought resources in fractionally or freelancers based on the folks you already had in your network then.

Heather McLean (: 11:58

Right. Yeah, we definitely, right now we have been working with mostly contractors, but they were all people that I'd worked with, people I trusted. And the great thing about it is we had a certain way of building software at my last organization and we had really spent years perfecting that. And so when I was able to bring these, this team in, we just went to work because we already knew how, how it was supposed to be good. We knew what it could look like. We knew how to work together and communicate and

And so it's really made our projects go very smoothly and we haven't had to have a lot of team building or a lot of spin up time because we all kind of had that collective understanding of how we would operate. So that's been kind of magic for us.

Brett Trainor (: 12:40

That's nice. Yeah. No need to reinvent the wheel if you don't have to, right? Spent decades with that process and if it works, why not? That makes sense. Now, I know you mentioned your husband, but when you started this, you weren't tag teaming. Obviously he was supportive of what you're doing, but kind of share with the audience how your two worlds now collide or partnered, I guess, and you guys now are running the business together.

Heather McLean (: 12:42

No.

Heather McLean (: 12:46

Yep, for sure.

Heather McLean (: 12:53

Right.

Heather McLean (: 13:04

Right. So he just retired from government civil service at the end of June, I think. And so really had been hands off with the company up until that point. But he really has expertise that rounds out sort of what I do and my expertise. So he's deep into the data world and IT strategy and IT service management. He's built global networks for the military. And so he brings all of that expertise and it's just...

really rounds out the capabilities that we can offer now. And so he's done work on projects and also is leading our growth. He's our chief growth officer, so he's leading sort of the growth of the business as well.

Brett Trainor (: 13:43

Yeah, that's awesome. Have you guys ever worked together in the past or is this the first time?

Heather McLean (: 13:47

You know, there was a time, many years ago that we were in like the same organization and had, you know, peripheral sort of maybe projects that touch each other. But this was the first time we really full on work together. And it's, been pretty good. You know, I have to say we get along pretty well anyway. And it's not that we never have conflict or we haven't had to work through things, but I really like it because, you know, when you go to a job that your spouse isn't involved in, they don't have context on anything you're doing, but.

Brett Trainor (: 14:08

Yeah.

Heather McLean (: 14:17

We have all the context. So it's, you know, it's really nice because there's always a lot to talk about. And I've got someone right there who knows exactly what I'm talking about. it, it, it spurs a lot of

Brett Trainor (: 14:19

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 14:27

Yeah, it's definitely the way to look at it. Cause with my wife, right, it was in corporate. She, well, she knew, didn't really knew what, know what I was doing, but she knew we were getting a paycheck every two weeks and we had benefits and healthcare. And then when I went solo, that unknown was even worse for her than, I'm not sure we could work together. We make a good couple, but compliment each other. just don't know in the business world, if that would, would make sense. it's, but I did have to bring her into the business.

Heather McLean (: 14:39

Right.

Heather McLean (: 14:48

you

Brett Trainor (: 14:55

in the sense that she understands we do a quarterly business review, which is more a life review at that point, because I can bring her everything in the business doing what I'm focused on. Here's where we're going. What do we need as a family, know, expenses coming up in these types of things. That was that helped us immensely being on the same page. So I could see it in the business as well. Now, is it easy then just to turn it off or is business just become life at this point in time? I'm sorry if I'm getting too personal, but it's just really curious.

Heather McLean (: 14:59

Mm-hmm.

Heather McLean (: 15:11

That's nice.

Heather McLean (: 15:20

Yeah, no, it's, it's been, it's become part of life really, you like we've been going for walks at night and that's kind of a good time for us to decompress and share with each other about our days and strategize and come up with new ideas. And, and that's, that's been great. It's been great for our relationship. I think it's been great for the business, you know, because we just talk about all the time, but we're both like really passionate about it as well. So it doesn't ever feel like work. feels like, we're going to go do this cool thing or.

Hey, guess what? We get to record another podcast episode this week. What do you want to talk about? So it's just been a lot of fun.

Brett Trainor (: 15:56

Yeah, no, I think that's right. Passion is the big thing. I was thinking about this the other day, right? Who's been successful is, you know, a relative term, but I find the people that are more passionate exiting corporate, whether it's resentment, anger, disappointment, whatever, that's their...

Heather McLean (: 16:13

you

Brett Trainor (: 16:17

the transition into the escapee world is much easier and quicker, because you do have that heightened sense of mode. Not that if you're apathetic and corporate that you can't do this, but I just, I don't know, because you mentioned the passion, you both have the passion for it. think that's, I don't have any scientific evidence for that, but it seems to be a reoccurring theme.

Heather McLean (: 16:37

yeah, I would guess. mean, I don't think anyone's going to build their own business without having passion for it. Cause you know, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of nose. You know, you get, you get a lot of, you know, setbacks, but then you have to, that passion drives you to keep moving forward.

Brett Trainor (: 16:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before we get into the kind of future in AI and that discussion, what are looking back on it now? Like I said, you've had, again, on the surface, everything looks smooth and it was an easy transition. Is there anything, you know, in hindsight that you would do differently? And maybe a part two of that is what's your advice for folks that are still sitting in corporate right now? They know they're done. What have you learned?

Heather McLean (: 17:03

you

Heather McLean (: 17:18

Right. You know, I think, I think I would tell people to go get a coach. And I just, I just, signed up for some programs with a, with a coach who I had known, I've known for a while. And I really think it, it really can be helpful and it can help you grow and it can help you figure out what are the things you need to kind of overcome and what are those challenges that you need to face to grow? Right. Because a lot of this has been just personal growth for me.

And I think I'm at a point now where I'm, ready to bring on a coach. So I wish I had done that sooner. and then also been concentrating on building my brand and LinkedIn, you know, I realized, you know, people are going to buy because they like me, they like us, they like what we stand for and what we do. And so I've got to work on that personal branding to get that message out there. And so I've invested in some tooling and you know, some, some pro online programs that really helped.

have given me a lot of guidance in this area. So I would say do that sooner than I did. Don't wait nine months to a year in to approach that.

Brett Trainor (: 18:24

That makes sense. And you did mention the podcast and I apologize I have not listened to it, but I will after this. When did you start the podcast? What's the name and what do you guys talk about?

Heather McLean (: 18:28

Yeah.

We, yep, we are like, it's called the tech tea with McLean Forrester. So you might, my daughters, I have four daughters and they talk about what's the tea, right? So that's what's the news. And so the idea is like, we talk about the tea, the latest in technology. So we always have sort of a current event, what's going on in the world. And then we pick a topic. Like, I think we just did, like process automation. We've talked about vertical generative AI.

And so we're six episodes in, we've been doing it about six months now, try to get one out every month. And then I also just started a newsletter and try to, now I'm trying to coordinate content between the newsletter and the podcast. so, trying to go the audience that way. that's been fun. really didn't know what the heck I was doing at the beginning of my podcast. You probably didn't either, but, and I learned more every time. I feel like it gets just a little bit better each time. So.

Brett Trainor (: 19:27

It does. And the beauty is, depending on how you structure it, the audience seems to respond right more now to the un...

Less production value in the sense, right? They don't expect NPR level transitions. And if you get good content, good conversations, it responded. Plus what I'm really, and I've done a horrible job. So this is do as I say, not as I do is leverage the podcast for other content. Right? I think I'm closing in on 300 episodes and I don't do nearly enough with it as, as I should, but I am getting better between LinkedIn, TikTok.

Heather McLean (: 19:41

Right.

Heather McLean (: 19:51

you

Brett Trainor (: 20:04

with the topic and being able to not just repurpose everything, but take the topic and then be able to do with tools, you know, pair it down to the platform that makes sense. But yeah, I think that the content is, is important in the newsletter. Are you, are you publishing that? that going to be a monthly or weekly?

Heather McLean (: 20:23

I monthly right now, you we'd love to do it more often, but I think right now it's a good start to, you know, get it out monthly and be consistent with that and continue to offer, you know, valuable, insightful information to our readers.

Brett Trainor (: 20:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll make sure both those initial notes people can catch up on it. So, all right. AI, this is when you were going into starting the business. this was what 18 months ago you started thinking about it. Was AI at the front end of this or is this something as the trend started accelerating, you thought this would be a good spot.

Heather McLean (: 20:40

Right.

Heather McLean (: 20:48

Right.

Heather McLean (: 20:55

I think it's the latter, right? So when I came out of corporate almost a year ago, was right when like ChatTPT was out and everybody was talking about it and, you know, it wasn't working at the time. So I had some time and I started reading up and trying it out. And then I thought to myself, this is going to be the wave. Like I need to get ahead of this because this is going to be the next big thing. So I actually signed up for an online course through Coursera.

It was like 50 bucks a month, right? And I became a certified prompt engineer, which it sounds fancy, but it actually wasn't that hard to learn. A lot of it was intuitive, but you, there are certain ways to prompt the, you know, those engines that make them perform so much better. And just having awareness of that has really helped me be able to use those tools over the past year. So I'd say that kind of sparked the, kind of sparked our interest. then my husband, when he was working in the

for the DOD, he was studying and he was researching emerging technology and trying to bring some of those things to the government. So he was already sort of playing in that space and was passionate about it. And so that kind of, said, well, maybe we can, we can bring this to customers. Like this is definitely going to be the wave. you'll see Gartner's been saying it for a year or more now that this is the next wave in technology and you better not get left behind. So.

We jumped on the bandwagon. Even this year, we've been able to put some internal resources towards learning code assist tools, towards building out a vertical AI chat bot. And so really getting ready for those customers who want those things. And I'd say at this point, we're ready. We're ready to rock.

Brett Trainor (: 22:36

That's awesome. mean, again, I haven't.

talked about it a lot or written about it, but I've got a bunch of stuff in the hopper around it because I was late to the party. I didn't, I mean, I saw where it was going, but I've also seen the technology waves. like, yeah, mean, chat bots have been around for a while in customer service, but then it really started within the community. Some folks were super passionate about it and starting to see. And then once I started playing with it and then understanding that, it helps with content. Then it now has just become a part of my daily strategy and my process.

Heather McLean (: 22:51

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Heather McLean (: 23:05

Right?

Mm-hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 23:08

And I started like, all right, how do I integrate it? Do I need Zapier to do some of these things, which is now getting way beyond my pay grade, but it's getting easier. But where I started to intersect, right, the old corporate world where I was in there and mostly in go to market and understood how the operating silos, which means operating budgets were that, right? If you're looking, but you know, AI and automation, it needs to go across. And it's just really hard to do that across different budgets.

Heather McLean (: 23:14

Right.

Heather McLean (: 23:31

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 23:38

So I really think that corporate at a macro level is going to struggle with AI. They're going to figure out pockets of it, but they got to fundamentally rebuild. I'm like, all right, so SMBs, right? That have a good product. Don't have a ton of resources all of a sudden between AI, right? They can start to automate. And I promise I'm getting to my point here, then, but the missing link was the experience with, with Gen X and the deeper I got, we just recorded an episode that went out the other day about.

Heather McLean (: 23:45

Right.

Heather McLean (: 23:54

Mm-hmm.

Heather McLean (: 24:03

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 24:08

You know, you can program AI all you want, but unless you have that business expertise and experience, it's, it's not going to work or you're going to fail faster or whatever. So I'm super interested in. I haven't quite figured out how we marry Gen Xers with the technology. maybe, you know, get your thoughts on where this is going, who's who has the opportunity and maybe how Gen X can get involved with us.

Heather McLean (: 24:14

True.

Heather McLean (: 24:22

you

Heather McLean (: 24:32

Right. mean, my advice is start trying to use it or take a course, right? Don't be afraid. There's actually a lot of free courses out there. You know, Google, Amazon, you name it and just get out there and start learning it, start using it because you'd be surprised how quickly you'll pick it up and how much more knowledgeable you just feel about the topic in general, which should lead to you learn, you know, curiosity to learn maybe more advanced things or maybe just start to think about things differently. So.

That's where I would start. That's where I started. And you know what I found out? Like a lot of things, it's not rocket science. It's not that hard. You just have to get out there and do the work and learn a little bit and invest in it.

Brett Trainor (: 25:14

Yeah, and I think too, even because the point you made with, I manage, I'm programmatic, right? With software, you're not necessarily doing the code. I think it's going to be the same way. So at least if we understand how it works and where the impact and how to apply it, the technology is just going to keep catching up where we can assist with it versus it. And that's where the SMBs need help.

Heather McLean (: 25:25

Right.

Heather McLean (: 25:33

Right.

It actually, yeah, has been just, you've seen all these products come out, all these tools, every week a new tool for this or that. And it should become eventually like part of your everyday work life as you start learning how to use these tools and the technology then becomes easier for everyone and more accessible.

Brett Trainor (: 25:55

Yeah, and I'm still curious because even like somebody that's been in CRM or data that maybe those are bad examples, but then can apply that knowledge to say, I may not know, I can know, I know how to program this, but I don't know what the rules I need or how to think about it. How do I create a solution that I can take to, you know, midsize manufacturers to help them automate.

Heather McLean (: 26:10

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 26:18

this specific piece and take the cost out. That's one thing I found with these business owners. It's, you making me money, saving me money or saving me time? If it doesn't hit one of those three buckets, then good luck.

Heather McLean (: 26:21

Right.

Heather McLean (: 26:27

Exactly. Yeah. Well, with your example, like if someone has a lot of experience in data, this is actually going to be the crux of whether people, companies can adopt this technology because if their data is in bad shape, they're not going to be able to take advantage of these AI capabilities because it kind of all does come back to the data and how things are tagged and linked together and understood. And so that's a great background to have if you're forging ahead in this area, because

Companies themselves don't understand how to solve some of their data problems.

Brett Trainor (: 26:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's super fascinating. We'll to keep you coming back to update us on the state of the AI market. And what you're seeing with some of these companies and where the gaps are and maybe where some, like I said, escapees can start to think about filling in the gaps for the...

Heather McLean (: 27:01

Mm-hmm.

Heather McLean (: 27:05

Sounds good.

Heather McLean (: 27:14

Yeah. We're seeing a lot of hesitancy with, you know, talking with a lot of senior leaders and organizations, they're still very hesitant to take the leap where they say, well we have our people and they're using some chat, chat GPT. And, know, that's sort of general AI capabilities, which don't get you a lot of savings and productivity and efficiency. They're afraid to take the leap into like these next level, like vertical generative, generative AI where.

The AI learns about you. learns about your customers, your products, and it has deep knowledge on all those things. And that can be a game changer, both within your organization and with your customers. So that's, but we're just seeing reluctance. And I just think it's going to be a little bit a matter of time here.

Brett Trainor (: 27:59

I think that's right. But if you're out in front of it and leading you, find the early adopters and then you're ready when it starts to. Because, one of the things that opened my eyes to this over the course of the past couple of years is seeing these, you know, solo businesses now generating million dollars in revenue by themselves, right? Because you have tools and automation and then you work with.

Heather McLean (: 28:03

I hope so, yeah. It's come our way.

Heather McLean (: 28:17

Mm-hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 28:21

I was a fractional growth officer for a company that was just under, were they two and a half million in revenue? not huge. They had 21 employees and like, me the, up and coming company that can build in the automation as it goes to do all this versus somebody that's already at 20 trying to figure out how to take the expense out of that business.

Heather McLean (: 28:39

Right, right, right. You got to build those systems in and you've got to build, like if you're building a company, you need to build yourself out of all the roles that you're playing right now. So that's sort of my goal as well. But the systems are definitely going to put you in place to grow and scale.

Brett Trainor (: 28:57

Yeah, I think the other two things, and maybe there's a separate topic on this, is how do you structure a modern company? Because you used to think, well, it's sales or marketing sales, onboarding service. I think that's changed. Customers don't care about all of that. And so if you try to build it the old way, you're just going to build the inefficiencies into the process.

Heather McLean (: 29:13

Right.

Heather McLean (: 29:17

Right. Yeah, I've, I was part of a large organization where we had a very strong separation between sales and delivery. And it was a struggle always. And so, I mean, our approach is it's, all together, right? Like we're selling and we're going to be, and I'm going to be overseeing those projects. And as we grow, I will find great competent people who can do those things as well. So.

Brett Trainor (: 29:38

Yeah, that makes sense. I was, I've been part of those, especially in startups. It's, you know, the handshake organization, right? The customer feels like it's handshake to the next group. We're just, Hey, here you go.

Heather McLean (: 29:44

That never works. No, right. And then customers are going to come to us because they trust us and they're not going to want to hand off to somebody who's not, you know, one of the senior leaders at this point, you know, where that's, that's our approach, sort of a white glove service, taking care of our clients and seeing it all the way through.

Brett Trainor (: 30:04

It makes sense, right? There was, think Brooke Sellers was on the podcast a long time. should bring her back on because she started a couple of years ago, maybe even longer now with kind of the virtual or the chat.

type of service, And so maybe it social. So Brooke, I'm sorry if I'm butchering, but the concept that we talked about in the podcast, it's always stuck with me. She's like, well, what we can do is get our agents, right? That know the products, like your customer service people know the products inside out. They know where the challenges are. Why wouldn't you have them upfront when customers or prospects have a question about the product that they could ask, right? It just.

you put the right people in the right roles because it's not the way we've always done it. And it just, that just makes no sense. Why they still live in the past with that.

Heather McLean (: 30:46

Yeah, you gotta be afraid. You gotta not be afraid to try something new and different because you can't keep doing the same thing you've always done.

Brett Trainor (: 30:56

Awesome, 100 % agree. So I know we covered a lot in this amount of time. Heather, is there anything else that we've missed? I do appreciate you coming in and sharing your journey so far. And while I may ask you the million dollar question, are you glad you left corporate?

Heather McLean (: 31:01

Yeah.

Heather McLean (: 31:05

Of course.

Heather McLean (: 31:11

my gosh, yes, do it. If you're thinking about it, do it now because it's just my work-life balance is amazing. I get to work on what I want to work on. You know, just my mental health and my health in general is so much better than it was when I was working in corporate. you know, be brave, take the leap. You can do this. You can do this.

Brett Trainor (: 31:33

Yeah, that's awesome. It's hard work, but you know what? It's your hard work. people say it's your hard. You get to choose your argument as well. Be the one you're in control of. So, no, I really appreciate you doing this. And so I know with being a younger company, definitely want to keep some tabs and I've been working behind the scenes to do some follow-up with some folks that we've had on just to.

Heather McLean (: 31:35

Mm-hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 31:53

to see how the process, right? The escapee journey is still relatively new for a lot of folks. And so I think it's helpful and appreciative of you coming on and sharing it because again, I think part of what we can do is just create the awareness and what's out there. Hey, it may not be for you, but if you don't try it or at least educate yourself, then you may kick yourself down the road.

Heather McLean (: 32:06

Right.

Heather McLean (: 32:14

Yep, so true. I'm a big fan. Thank you for everything you do. I always send my friends who are thinking about leaving corporate, I send them right to you and tell them to go check it out, check out your posts, because I believe in it. I really do. It's a great avenue for, especially for our genoculars. Exactly.

Brett Trainor (: 32:25

Yeah, awesome.

And the more we can work together and collaborate, the easier it is for everyone. So awesome. So Heather, if folks want to connect with you and learn more, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Heather McLean (: 32:39

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, Heather McLean, also mcleanforester.com is our website. We've got a lot of great content out there. Hopefully you can learn a little bit more about what we do. And those are probably the easiest two ways. We also have our Tech Tea podcast on Spotify and on YouTube. So you can check us out there. Cool.

Brett Trainor (: 32:56

Yeah, awesome. We'll link all of those in the show notes. So if anybody still does check show notes, if not just Google Heather McLean, you can find her with the background. So cool. Well, congrats on the early success. And success is relative. The state of mind is huge. So congrats on that for sure. And we'll catch up with you here in the new year. All right. Thanks, Heather.

Heather McLean (: 33:01

Thank

Heather McLean (: 33:05

Yes.

Heather McLean (: 33:11

Yes.

Heather McLean (: 33:16

Alright, that sounds great. Thanks for having me on,