Laid Off After 27 Years—And Finding Fulfillment Beyond Corporate w/ Thea Watkins

Brett Trainor (: 00:00

I am delighted to be here. Now it's absolutely my pleasure and we've been talking about this for a while so I'm glad to finally get you here and I know it was more of my schedule so I appreciate your patience as we've we're finally hitting record though. Brilliant brilliant looking forward to it. All right so best I always like to so let people know what are you doing today post you know corporate escape.

And then I want to go back in time because I think there's a lot of learnings for folks is a lot of the audience is still in corporate and just to get different perspectives on the journey, right? What worked well, what didn't work well, what you do different, what you wouldn't change, all that good stuff. So we'll go back in time, but to start, don't you share with what are you doing today? Yeah. Well, first of all, I am doing what I love, which is so important to me. And I

Every day I get up and I think I'm going to do again what I love and I feel so fortunate to be in that position. I spent 27 years in the corporate world and actually had a wonderful experience in the corporate world. But today what I do is really help individuals and organizations to realize their potential. And how do I do that? I do it through three main avenues. One, I lecture

to the generation of the future to undergrads. And I lecture in leadership and inclusive leadership, which is increasingly an important skill today, how to manage and inspire people to deliver results as opposed to using a position of power to get what one can out of people.

And I absolutely love teaching. I love my students. I find them fascinating and I find the work that they produce to be amazing. And just to be exposed to that group is wonderful. Second thing I do is I coach individuals and facilitate to larger groups of individuals. And again, this is all about having productive conversations in a safe space.

and helping people and teams of individuals to realize their full potential. So it's all geared towards generating experiences that will help people to reach their full potential. And my third piece of my business model is pure consulting. So I will work on strategic initiatives for organizations, whether they be for-profit or non-profit.

and really help them with all my experience of 27 years. There's not much I haven't seen, there's not much I haven't done. And so that ability to help on strategy, I find extremely rewarding. So those are my three areas. And as I say, it is something that I'm getting a huge amount of fulfillment from. And it is so gratifying when people do achieve things that they didn't think were possible.

And I help and support them to do that. That's awesome. And you said so many good and interesting things there that right as I went through my journey, didn't realize some of this stuff till way after the fact. And the one you said you get up every day and get to do what you love to do. And I find that too, right? It was the energy that I had even now when I'm building with the escapee and I'm working a lot more hours than I was even a year ago, but I'm energized every morning I get up. And so

I just don't think people in corporate can appreciate that. Right. And then then two is you're leveraging your experience, right? Again, I think Gen Xers specifically, that's my audience don't value those years of learning and how important it is to other people. So.

I mean, we're two minutes in and I've already taken it just down a rabbit hole a little bit, but I think it's, it was worth reinforcing, right? Because I don't think we always, we always get that. So, all right, so we're going to go into these three because my guess is at the tail end of your corporate career, you, this wasn't the three prong you were looking at, but I may be wrong. walk us back, you're at the tail end of corporate. Did you know you were leaving? Did you have a plan and kind of walk us through that transition?

I was very fortunate, as I said, to have 27 really great years actually with same organization. that's obviously today that is not particularly common. I had thought about pursuing my passion, which was really around the people side of things. My role when I left corporate was a broad executive role.

There were elements that I absolutely loved, i.e. the people side of things, the colleague engagement side of things, the diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, belonging side of things I loved, and developing my own team and leading my own team, the leadership aspect I love. But there were other things in my role that weren't as exciting, such as governance and shared service models, to be honest.

That's not the sort of thing that floats my boat. Risk management. Done it all my life, but not really something that floats my boat. So I had thought about, how could I find a way to pursue my passion, but I wasn't brave enough. And to make that step and to have that, that confidence to go out on my own was something I found incredibly scary.

But then circumstances changed. There was changes in leadership teams and I found my role eliminated. And that was after a particularly grueling time during the pandemic when I was also crisis managing with the rest of the executive team and keeping our people safe. So it was a point at which I was really approaching burnout, if not probably already there like many of my colleagues.

So it happened and did I think that I would have created what I have created at the time that I left? Absolutely not. I didn't even think that I was gonna run my own business. I thought I was gonna find myself another corporate role and I would try to focus my corporate role on my passion.

That's where I thought I was going when I left corporate. I definitely knew I wanted to take a break and have some time to myself. And after 27 years of working straight, I thought I deserved a little time to myself. And then I thought, right, I'll get myself together. I'll get my resume together. I kept my LinkedIn profile updated, none of which had been done in 27 years. And, you know, I'll get on with job search and I'll find another role. And it didn't work.

out that way. I'm thrilled actually that he didn't. Now were you surprised by the layoff? mean 27 years is a long time. Was I surprised?

The business was going through a fair amount of transition, and there had been layoffs every year in the business for the pandemic period.

So was I surprised that my role was eliminated? Yes and no. And it wasn't the only role that was eliminated on the executive committee. We had a change in leadership on the executive committee as well. So yeah, there was a lot of change going on. And I think it's fair to say that

we were all as an executive committee prepared for some further changes. Okay. Yeah, because my career,

today, a job hopper, right? Just, just not necessarily the plan, but just the way the businesses and the businesses I worked for, you know, went under changes, circumstances, et cetera. So they all stand bother me by the end, because I just knew this is what happens. But when you've never been laid off and every seven years, it's probably a bit of a shock to the system to say, all right, well, now what I like the approach, but it still had to been a bit of a punch, if you will.

Yeah, it was pretty emotional, if I'm honest, Brett. And someone once said to me, and it's so true, and I would say this to anybody, if you're in a role or within an organization for such a long period of time, your identity becomes that, right? And it's very important for us all to focus on what our identity is.

aside from what we do for a living because we have so much to offer and that always stuck with me. You are not your job. You you have an identity that exists outside of the workplace and you're so many things to so many people and it's very important for us to keep remembering that and to not allow our attachment to our role.

to determine our emotional state because that is a vulnerable place to be in. And I'm not saying we shouldn't be vulnerable, but it can be very damaging and it could take you longer to recover if you have that such an attachment to a position or an organization. Yeah. And I think we let's spend a little time unpacking it because this is such a, an important thing that I see, like I said, I'm probably closing in on it.

thousand conversations with Gen Xers now, different stages and still. And I didn't realize how tied I was to that corporate identity. Now, mine wasn't just a company, was more the role and what I did. But that is the biggest challenge I find with folks as they're transitioning and escaping out of corporate is decoupling that position. I'm a director of finance, I'm a head of sales.

in this world of escapee, it's not that important, right? It's these are the problems where we shift to problem solving. And I really didn't appreciate the emotional aspect of this until I started looking back a couple of years later, right? So I think one that you recognized it early is a testament to you because most people don't, right? We don't, there's still people struggling with they don't understand why they feel the way the way

they do, and I think that's it. So that's really interesting. Yeah, and it helps. It does help to have a really full and rich life and support system, I think, you know, with your family or your friends. That is so important. And you also see it a lot, this phenomenon, this attachment to work, this attachment to your role.

with people retiring. People don't want to retire because they can't envision a life outside of work and what that looks like. So having outside interests, having people who are your support system and surrounds is so important at this turning point in your career. We should have met earlier because again, one of the things I struggled with exiting was the

support system. didn't tell anybody that I was on my own for a couple of years. Hindsight, I'm like, why? Right. And people listen to this podcast, know I've talked about this. I'm like, it's my biggest regret that I didn't tell people sooner because everybody does want to be supportive and helpful. If they don't know, they can't help you. Yes. And friends and family are critical to as part of this journey because you don't want to be fighting against that current when you're trying to build this out. So, yeah.

Were you intentional about building or you just had already had that support network built in? You knew you could rely on it and your intuition was, yeah, this is what I'm going to need. So, I mean, yes, I was always very fortunate to have wonderful siblings, husband, girlfriends, friends generally. So I always had that. But what I was very intentional about,

And this was an early learning for me. And again, I'm so glad that I had the direction to do this, is building a network. I had been so focused on my internal network with my employer. There were lots of people I knew internally. If I wanted to get something done, I knew who to ask. But had I focused on my external profile, my external network? No, I had neglected it terribly.

And so I was very, very intentional about getting into the uncomfort zone of networking, of reaching out to people I'd never spoken to before, asking them for an informational conversation. I used to be so reluctant to do that as an introvert, but what I learned is it's the only way to get moving. You have to build a really strong professional network.

And you have to invest heavily in that and you have to invest genuinely in it, not just in a surface way. And if I think about those early days, some of the most important relationships I have are those that I crafted from literally nothing at the beginning. And these are people who I have huge admiration and respect for. are experts in the field of

Inclusion, leadership, facilitation, and they have been so kind to me and so supportive of me and so genuine in their desire to help that I am hugely, hugely grateful to have those people by my side as I build my business. Yeah, that's such a good point. Again, you keep leading me right into point after point because I think the intentionality of the network is important and what you said is

is even more important of building the relationships, right? It's not about surface level. It is about connecting with people both ways, right? You've got to be curious and you got to be wanting to help each other. And that's when it really takes off. And one of things we did in corporate, I don't know very many of us that were in corporate that were good at that because it's not what we had networks for. It was to find that next job. It was back to our identity as right, a head of sales and

ong now? So I left in June of: 2022

f working on it at the end of: 2023

I haven't even done a LinkedIn post to say I have a business. So that's when I did it, you know, and yeah, so I've been 18 months or so, I guess, in in having my own business. Got it. And again, I think everybody's at their own time frame and tell people, even if you're easing into it, have a sense of urgency. You got it. You got to go all in. Sounds like the

hustle culture, that's not what I'm saying, but you have to be serious about it and put the hard work in to get it there. The other thing I love about your approach with this is you kind of looked at it as a portfolio, because when I started it was, I'm just going to consult, right? And that was narrow minded and focused on that. And over time, I'm like, there's a bunch of different opportunities that I'm qualified to support if I just had my eyes open. The one thing that you mentioned early was the teaching.

and I think that's of interest to lot of folks, me included. So how did you go from corporate to, because you're teaching at a college, right? Yes, yes. How that happened? Well, first of all, let me say that my mom was a teacher and she believed very greatly in education and the power of education. And she taught us all as kids, I'm one of four, that

you need to be curious, you need to learn. And we were, you know, we were just basically blessed with the most amazing parents for which I'm eternally grateful. But particularly my mum was that teacher and my father was an educator in a different way. So there was something about teaching that always I always admired and she the relationship she had with her kids that she taught from four till eleven.

they used to come back to her in their 30s. She was an amazing teacher. So I always admired the profession and knew how important it was from my own experience with teachers, you what a big impact people could make on your life as a teacher. And obviously it speaks to my experience as a leader. I felt I had a lot to offer in that space. And I did a networking conversation with somebody who happened to mention on a big network call that they were an adjunct professor.

and I thought to myself, hmm, I might quite like to do that myself. So I was curious and I asked her for a call and she, we had a lovely call and she was really fantastic. And she said, you know what, I'm going to introduce you to my head of department because sometimes we have vacancies and you never know. So then I met with him and another lovely individual and he and I

had this great conversation about learning and he said, well, I don't have anything right now, but maybe let's stay in touch for next year because we're doing a new degree course and there might be a slot for you there. And that was it. And I said, well, it's wonderful conversation. And I left it at that. And lo and behold, three weeks later, he called me with an opportunity, which was out of the blue for him and certainly out of the blue for me.

So then I started and he offered me the course in leadership for someone who was, in fact, it was inclusive leadership first, for someone who was moving to another college. And then a few weeks after that, a spot opened up in leadership and he offered me that too. And I was just, wow, this is amazing. And then I realized how much work was involved.

and it involved 15 week courses, designing them. And that was pretty stressful because it was my first experience and I just tried to think about what I could offer, how I could structure it all. And I got it done and the rest is history. And since then, I've been asked to work with one of the fabulous instructional designers at the college who's

helped me to learn even more about how to structure courses. And we've done an online course together and we're about to do another online course together. yeah, it's kind of grown. And it was all through curiosity and the conversation and networking and, you know, clearly a desire to teach. Yeah. And had you any teaching experience prior other than corporate? None whatsoever.

And just, mean, obviously I facilitated and grown teams and led teams and all that good stuff, but never actually taught anything before. Yeah, I think that's going to be a path for a lot of folks to consider. I'm kicking the tires.

Yeah.

Exactly, exactly. It's so valuable because you can bring your own experiences in that are real. You could also bring your networking to talk to your students, which they find really valuable because they, you you can have panels of your people who can share their knowledge and experience. That's a good idea. We may have to do a separate.

this path because I know some

All right, so you get the teaching part. Was that first or did you launch your other business first? It was kind of concurrent with some facilitation opportunity that I got from a UK organization that I had known in corporate. And these these tracks were kind of running alongside. And I was also studying at Cornell to get my advanced certificate in DEI, which was really important to me, So it was kind of all happening.

So in the project, again, it's part of where people struggle with is the networking and right, there's people who are connectors that can connect you with your ideal customer. You know, at that point when you had that networking call, were you clear on what you wanted to do or were you still listening and figuring it out? And it may seem super tactical, but it's an important question that people really struggle finding that first client. Yeah, I was still figuring it out. I'll be quite honest. And

I felt that the lecturing would certainly add to my credibility in the field as a consultant and as a facilitator. And obviously presenting to groups and working with the undergraduate population was going to be of great value to me. Designing content. Similarly, if I wanted to deliver content to a corporate, I needed to know

how to design it and make it appealing and compelling. So it was organic. It was not particularly planned. I didn't for a minute think that from a conversation with the head of department, I would have two courses to teach by the fall. I was fortunate with the timing, I think, as well. And similarly with the facilitation, that was an opportunity.

I approached another wonderful person who I'd studied at Cornell with to co-facilitate with me. And we got the opportunity to work together, which was an incredible experience. We learned a great deal from each other too in that time. It's an underappreciated path, right? I know more escapees are starting to partner together on opportunities just because it makes sense, right? Because you both can learn.

And you get two for the price of one in a lot of cases and you know, it's, it's, it's an interesting path. And, so the last one was the coaching and I guess it's just based on chatting with you. That coaching was kind of where the North star was taking you anyway. How did you, how did you go from, I want to coach to starting to get clients, right? Did you have a, I'll call it a curriculum methodology. How maybe I won't put words in your mouth. Yeah.

So here's the thing. I also during this time, Brett, was working with a professional coach. And we worked a lot on mindset. We worked a lot on delivering my own potential. And he helped me tremendously to figure out what my true passion was and how I could work to monetize that.

He helped me with disciplines in business, such as business development, customer relationship management tools, pitches, confidence, all of the above. And so I have to thank Jay for his tremendous work with me because he brought out what was there all the time, but just

didn't necessarily have the confidence to show itself. Even after 27 years in reaching an executive position in the bank, I was still very, very humble and very, and I'm still humble, but just very unsure about my own capabilities. And that's what really, really helped me enormously to do that. And so, yeah,

The coaching, once I saw the benefit of coaching to me, I began to realize if I had had this 15 years earlier, I'd have reached the executive way quicker because I'd have had somebody by my side. Even though I had great sponsors and great mentors, I never had that coach. And then I was absolutely convinced of the value of it and decided that I had so much to offer, particularly women in financial services.

I had walked their path and so much to offer through my own mentoring that I'd done today. And it always mentored women and men actually, but always mentored women in particularly around confidence, et cetera. And so it was natural to me to want to do it for others. And I did a course and got a certification through

a wonderful, another wonderful group in the UK and really felt, yeah, this is something I love doing. got a lot, I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. And how did you find your first coaching clients? Cause that's going to be the next. Yeah. Yeah. So through referrals, through existing

women that I have mentored and helped during the period, particularly after leaving corporate. And I continue to get referrals and have people approach me in terms of wanting specific help with confidence, with self-belief, with

presence, executive presence. And so I also coach men, by the way, have, you know, really get a lot of enjoyment out of that too. Sometimes they want different things, you know, they might be doing career transition, for example. Sometimes it's softer skills that they want help with. And I really enjoy that. So it's a combination and

referrals. Referrals are always the best because somebody's experienced your work, right, and they have gained from it. And I have recently done a positive intelligence course and I want to start offering that to my clients. So I'm thinking about how I integrate that into my practice right now. And I've got some ideas, particularly for women in financial services that I think would be super helpful too.

That's awesome. again, I think it's been interesting through, again, our personal journeys going through this, that most of the time in corporate, unless the company paid for something, we weren't getting coaches or help. And admitting that you had a problem was a corporate suicide, right? Because somebody else is going to get the promotion. he needs help. He can't do this, right? So half of corporate is just fake playing the game. I mean, we do learn. And I do say I did learn a lot in my corporate.

But by the tail end, was, there wasn't any more learning, right? It was more managing and staying. so I think that's an opportunity for folks that are still in corporate that I now use coaches myself in different areas that plug in and help. I mean, it's kind of a cheap code in some cases. It just helps you unlock certain things faster. So don't be afraid as you go through the process. Now there's some really bad coaches that aren't going to help you get, and they promise you the world and.

So there's probably another episode on how to filter through and identify that they're the right coach. But for the most part, if you're working with Gen Xers, they get it. Right. They just want to, they want to help. another thing you touched on that we don't talk nearly enough about is the emotional and mental side of, leaving corporate. And again, for me, it was a lot of reflection of five years of doing this. So it's, it's easier to look backwards.

And you've mentioned it, and even offline we talked a little bit. So what are some of the things that you would advise folks that are thinking about corporate from the mental? Maybe there's not a good way to prepare yourself, but I just really, I didn't ask a very good question there, but I think you know where I'm going with this. Yeah, yeah. I I think from my experience, I often thought about it, Brad. I thought about what could it look like?

I didn't really dedicate much much mental headspace to it because you are so busy often right and you're on you're on that treadmill and you just cannot seem to find the time and the headspace to get off it constructively. I would encourage people to make that time and be intentional about making that time and thinking about what the possibilities could be and

imagining like what would life be like if I didn't have this job? What would I really love to do? What are my core values? You know, what is going to really speak to and align with those core values? And even doing some simple exercises where you get to understand your core values. I have all my clients do this. We look at their values and

we prioritize those values. And it really helps them to clarify and get the clarity around what it is they want and what are their non-negotiables, right? And what is it that they, where are they at their most energized and are they at their most fulfilled? And so I would really encourage anybody who's thinking about leaving corporate to get

those creative juices flowing and dedicate, even if it's just an hour a week, to really think about what that could look like. You don't need like have the plan all baked and everything down to the last detail, but have some ideas in your head about what it is is going to fulfill you. Do some of those exercises. Look at your values, prioritize your top five values. What are they?

and think about what business it is that is really going to make you want to get up in the morning and feel energized. And then, you you can't really ever prepare yourself, as you say, if you are subject to a layoff, but to the extent that you can make sure your support system is robust and that you are

as prepared as you can be. And if you can see like a number of different layoffs have happened, you've had one or two a year for the last two years, don't be in denial and think you're immune from it because you are not. so be open-minded and try to think along those lines would be my advice. That makes sense. A plan for the worst, hope for the best.

at job. But again, hindsight,: 2020

done three years into this. Now what is it? Do I want to work part time? How many hours do I want to work? Do I want to be able to work remotely? Do the type of clients? And yes, you're here to dream you can do all of this, right? It seems like a pipe dream, but it's really important. And I think the other thing that people get hung up on is once you define it, you can change it's okay, your priorities change, you start to realize what energizes you, you may think one thing right now, but you get out there.

think teaching would be the best. I want to be a, you know, adjunct professor where you get in, you're like, I just don't like the monotony of it, right? Or it's whatever it is. It's okay. You can keep finding what energizes you as long as you keep, keep moving forward. Absolutely. And better late than never for people like me. So that's why I have this podcast is to educate folks and know, Taya, you had it figured out at least portions of it a little ahead of the game.

Again, that's why I like to bring folks on and just share their experiences. Cause I know there's a lot of folks saying, I can't do this. I'm like a hundred percent you can, right? It's do you want to and how important is it to you? again, if you're listening to the podcast, then I'm guessing it's at least a little bit important to you because you're, know, you keep tuning in. anything that we want to be respectful of your time, it's flown by, is there anything that we, didn't cover any other advice or.

wisdom that you have for folks on this journey? I'd love to just pick up on what you said there in terms of one-two. There's a great coach called Steve Chandler who my coach introduced me to and he's written a wonderful book called Crazy Good. I highly recommend that to people. It's a very easy read, it's short chapters, but he talks about one-two versus how-to and

If you really want to do something, you will find a way to do it. So don't get too hung up, as I was saying earlier, on this fabulous plan that's fully baked. Be open-minded, be agile, and take the action that you think and that people around you who have done this before are advising you to take.

But don't keep telling yourself, I'm not ready yet, I can't do it yet. Go for it. Because as you said, you can achieve things that you didn't think were possible by putting yourself in that comfort zone. And you can achieve the happiness, the fulfillment that you so desperately wanted when you were in corporate, but never could

quite get it. And so it's about, you know, really wanting something, going for it, not being too hung up on the how to in the early stages. You can learn a lot on the way and you can also ask people for support and help because as you said, they'll be very willing to give it to you if you ask in the right way. You are appropriately respectful to them.

to is, right? mean, that's, it's the folks that are looking for something more. We all kind of fit into this, this arc because we knew people in corporate that got ahead by being the asshole and playing the political game that I don't, almost every one of these conversations I've had with folks, nobody really liked the political game. We had to do it a little bit, but it was never in our DNA. So which I find super refreshing as we get together outside of corporate that we do have kind of that shared.

experience share values, which, again, people who knew me in corporate hear me talk now are like, are you the same person? I'm like, yes, that was just that was corporate me that I didn't know that was corporate me. So I don't forget what was the name of that book was crazy good, crazy good. Okay, Chandler, Steve Chandler, very easy read. And yeah, I give it I give that to some of my clients to read as well. Okay, it's on my

be on my list by the time we hit publish on this episode. So, Taya, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you sharing your story. And if people want to connect with you, which I highly encourage they do, what's the best play or way for them to do that? Yeah, thank you, Brett. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. So Taya at TayaWatkinsConsulting.com and my website is TayaWatkinsConsulting.com.

And LinkedIn, you okay with connections on LinkedIn? Absolutely. Yep. Just look me up. LinkedIn. I'll be very happy to connect. And that's it's T-H-E-A for those folks that aren't looking at the show notes, which I will put these in the show notes as well. Again, thank you so much. And again, as we get into the, I think there's a path or an episode I want to do where we get into the professor and the teaching aspect. So don't be surprised if you get a call back from me to.

do a deeper dive into that. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks again for joining in. Have a great day and we'll catch up with you soon. Thank you, Brad.