From Solo to Synergy: Debbie Schwake & Ashley Evenson on Building Flexible, Collaborative Escapee Partnerships

Brett Trainor (: 00:02

Debbie and Ashley, welcome to the Corporate Escapee Podcast. And I should say, Ashley, welcome back to the Corporate Escapee Podcast.

Ashley (: 00:10

Thank you, I'm excited to be back with you Brett.

Debbie Schwake (: 00:13

Thanks Brett, so good to see you. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 00:13

And Debbie, you're the, a new member to the podcast and the folks are, been listening for a while. You've heard Ashley maybe six months ago. Was it that long ago? Four months ago. It's fine.

Ashley (: 00:23

about yeah four months ago something like that.

Brett Trainor (: 00:26

Okay. So I encourage listeners to go back and listen because we do a deeper dive on what her escapee journey looked like. But today I want to, you know, one of my goals with the escapee collective was how do we collaborate? Right? Cause we've had a lot of people with a lot of experience that are going solo, but I think there's a lot of power in collaboration. So Ashley reached out and said, Hey, I'm collaborating with a fellow escapee. You know, would that make sense for the podcast? I'm like a hundred percent. It would make sense for the podcast.

So I just wanted to spend the majority of the time talking about how that got started, how it's working, those types of things, and maybe share others can, because we've got a lot of smart people that I think would do some good work together. But before we get there, Debbie, we really don't know your escapee journey. So maybe just share a little bit of what your corporate life looked like and when you left corporate or if corporate left you. And Ashley, I'll also have you in a minute recap kind of your journey as well, just for those folks that are new.

Debbie Schwake (: 01:20

Mm -hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 01:26

So Debbie, if you don't mind, kick us off.

Debbie Schwake (: 01:27

Yeah. Sounds good, Brett. So I'm Debbie Schwacki and I have been a CMO for the last number of years. We'll, leave timeframes out of it, but for the last number of years, I've got experience across a number of industries. So healthcare, I spent a number of years in aviation. I've got a tech background, some consulting background and some agency background, mainly at the head of marketing role, right?

And so, last winter I found myself, sort of like a number of marketers that we know. and the, the, I became an involuntary free agent and I made a decision at that time brought to, know, how was I going to pivot? What was I going to do with my future career? And one of the things that I thought was important in my particular situation was I really wanted to diversify my income.

because I didn't really care for a single income stream that I didn't necessarily have control over. So that was my journey in a nutshell and how I got started along this path.

Brett Trainor (: 02:40

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm digging just for a second. Then I'm to come to you, Ashley. when you did, you know, at that time you weren't going back into corporate and you were going to figure out how you were going to go solo or are you looking maybe to back in corporate? Also looking at it other paths because everybody's kind of got their different tipping points. I'm just kind of curious where you are at.

Debbie Schwake (: 02:57

Yeah, I always say my husband wanted me just to go back to a full -time job that had some level of security to it, right? But truthfully, Brett, I started down a journey of maybe doing some independent consulting about four years ago. I really thought about it. And at the time I built a brand, built a, you know, sort of a line of business. And I got to the point where I didn't feel as though I was

confident enough to sell whatever my services might be as a consultant. So I got scared off by kind of the sales aspect of it and decided to just go back to that comfortable corporate life.

Brett Trainor (: 03:38

Gotcha, until now and we'll talk about your partnership here with Ashley in a second. So Ashley, same thing, if you kind of walk us back through, I remember talking to you before, you left her somewhere in that general area and you were somewhat committed at that point in time, if I remember right.

Ashley (: 03:56

Yeah, just to recap the audience that didn't listen to the podcast four months ago or something like that. was Brett, came up in my TikTok. and you know, that dang FYP, you kept coming up and it started to plant a little bit of a seed of, you know, fractional talent, fractional CMO. And I thought, well, this is something very interesting to me. And I was sitting at the point of, spent about

Debbie Schwake (: 04:17

Okay.

Ashley (: 04:26

three years in big management consulting and prior to that 15 years in ad agencies and ad technology. And I just realized I missed the entrepreneurship that I had in the agency life. I loved the hustle. I loved meeting people. I loved networking. I loved solving problems for, you know, smaller to mid -size companies. So when you came up in my FYP and

the content kept coming. I'm like, this is very interesting to me. So I started to do a diligence on my side. My previous agency actually had fractional talent. So my old CEO was like, Hey, I want you to talk to them. So I talked to very much alike peers with similar backgrounds and really learned from them like, Hey, this is a great option, the flexibility. I also got benchmarks for you know, what I should be charging. So after

further investigation and also talking, Debbie knows this. And I think I mentioned this on my, other podcast is my daughter's an All -Star cheer and somehow a lot of moms and All -Star cheer index to be business owners in the consulting space. And I just had a lot of great moments with them as we were traveling for All -Star cheer and a lot of encouragement of all of them saying I never looked back was the best thing I did. So

You know, earlier this year I decided I'm going to do it, I'm going to commit to it, and I hit the ground running.

Brett Trainor (: 05:58

That's awesome. Awesome. Yeah. It's funny how those things work and destiny or support is the biggest thing, right? Cause we talked about this when I went solo, I don't think I told anybody for two years or very few people knew in hindsight. like, what was I thinking? Right. Now that we've got the community of like 800 plus that people know and the support and the networking, it's just, I don't know, maybe it was just a different time or I would, I just didn't know any better. Right. So I think it's such good advice. Just it's okay if you tell people and

take control it's not a bad thing so so okay so at this point you two are now solo free of the corporate chains and the nine -to -five grind and all that so how did you get connected I know the answer that you didn't know each other before this so I'd love to hear how how those paths cross

Ashley (: 06:28

Mm

Debbie Schwake (: 06:48

Yeah, so Ashley and I found ourselves at an event together being introduced for the first time. And at the same time, a mutual friend of ours said, you two need to know each other because I think you will really kind of enjoy networking together.

And by the way, could you also help me with my business? And so we quite literally said, Hey, it's nice to meet you. let's get started. Let's figure this thing out. And so we, we legitimately got posted to a client together and just started working on what we do and found that what we do.

separately is so similar to one another. Our values are similar, our methodologies, our thought processes and all that. And we got to a point where we had a conversation like, I think we've got something here. What are we thinking? Like, where do we think this goes? Ashley, what's your version of that?

Ashley (: 07:55

Just to build on that, mean, I do recall each of the events and what is interesting, Brett, is I kept a journal early on in this phase because I was like, I need to reference this time. I even have a video recording of me at the beginning of this year, recording myself and like saying my goals. And in this journal, I remember I went to meet Debbie. So we had that first introduction and I was like, I really need to speak with Debbie because she has

a very similar background. was at a big consulting firm like myself. So she understood that that way of life as well as you know, being in you know, marketing leadership roles. I was like, my gosh, I haven't met someone that understands where I've been coming from. So we met at the event and then we met for lunch and I wrote in my journal like I'm super excited. I should have pulled that up. Like I'm really excited to meet Debbie. Not sure where this is going to go. But I feel like

Debbie Schwake (: 08:26

you

Ashley (: 08:52

there's something here. And this is before we were even put on a project. don't know, some kind of weird spidey sense of some nature, but I really have it in my journal. Like, I feel like there's something here. So we had lunch. I think I had salmon that day. Don't quite really remember. But we had a lot of synergies and we partnered on this project. And I felt like it was almost love at first sight in a weird, in a partnership way because

how we work together was very much what I've been used to in the consulting world. But we also had a different level of understanding. We were not these big consultants, but also we had industry experience. So we had this just great working relationship. Debbie understood slide development. She understood kind of this like thought process that I've been so exposed to over the last three years. to Debbie's point, we got the point in the relationship that

Brett Trainor (: 09:29

Good.

Ashley (: 09:51

know, things were working so well. It was like, what are we? Like, what is this? Are we dating? Are we like, together? Like, we had to have that conversation of like, what is this? And then we just like, okay, you know, let's give this a try of, know, essentially starting our own company. So that's my that's my side of the story, or how we how we met story.

Debbie Schwake (: 09:57

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 10:12

No, I love that. And it's such a good lesson for folks because, you know, one of the first conversations I have with people, well, do you have other marketing people in the community or do you have other sales people? like, yes, but that doesn't matter. I mean, in the corporate world, competition, you know, two people fighting for the same promotion or the same, I'm like, it doesn't exist in this world. There's so much opportunity in the more the synergy you put together and the like, the, you know, the shared values.

Debbie Schwake (: 10:39

Mm hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 10:41

I can two minds are better than one. You can hit a lot more. So I'm so glad you guys reinforced that that yes, you were similar, but that's okay. Right. There's enough business to, to go get folks. So, okay. So you guys are heading down that path and I'm also curious, are you still doing your own thing? So you're doing some fractional? Okay. Yeah. I would love, give me both first. Maybe we'll go to you, Debbie first and then back to Ashley on.

You know how how are you guys structuring this and you know, what are your independent businesses?

Debbie Schwake (: 11:12

You know, Brett, I love that you talked about abundance because for so many years in corporate, you're right. Corporate is really designed about competition internally, which is unfortunate because I think that just tears down so many of people's true gifts and talents. If you can really focus on that generosity and that spirit of building one another and the team wins together and all that sort of thing.

So as Ashley and I got started, I don't think either of us ever looked at one another as any form of competitive. In fact, we were, and still are daily, very incredibly transparent with one another about all things that we're doing. So we both have independent businesses, our own LLCs outside of our partnership, and we have the partnership.

And the way that we mutually talk about things is, Hey, I'm going to be talking to this opportunity about X or Y. Ashley, could use your help looking at my slide deck, or do you have some content about this that could help me win this pitch or the opposite, which just happened. I have this opportunity that came to me as I'm looking at it. This looks like an us opportunity, not a singular Debbie opportunity.

Do you want to go into it together? And we have those very, very transparent discussions about what we're both doing independent of one another and what we plan to do together. It makes so much more sense because there is so much to be, there's so much abundance. Like I just can't even tell you how many things are in front of people that are opportunities.

Ashley (: 12:57

Yeah, and just to build on what Debbie's saying, Brett, is with the transparency, we've gotten into a good group. Like Debbie and I essentially meet every single day. We have a standing 10 o 'clock meeting. We meet every single day to talk about our clients, what's coming up, like our own business. So we have found that daily connection great. And then obviously we will have longer working sessions for what we need. We are, we know

what is on our plate. typically Wednesdays are dedicated to, we're both on site with clients on Wednesday. like Wednesday is definitely not a, and coalition day that's dedicated to our own, our own fractional practices. So we've just got a real good kind of like song and dance going on with schedules. And then, you know, for example, when we leave client site on the project we're on, we always debrief like on our drive call home. So it's like,

those little pockets of time. And we honestly are friends now. So we're like sending TikToks and it will be anything from like a Gartner report to like a TikTok that we saw. So like our text message threads are probably really, really interesting because it's all over the board of business versus like a funny, a funny TikTok. But back to the point that Debbie made is, you know, at first going out on this like solo journey, it is kind of alone. And obviously, Brett, you have that

Debbie Schwake (: 13:58

Okay.

Brett Trainor (: 14:04

awesome.

Ashley (: 14:22

community to like not feel so alone. But it's been so helpful to have Debbie there and just to, you know, pressure test things or like, hey, I haven't done this before in my career. Can you give me some insights on how to work with this? So it's very much like a co -worker in the way of just like, hey, I need help here or wherever that is. And I think as our business together, we definitely have our different spikes.

Brett Trainor (: 14:46

Yeah.

Ashley (: 14:52

Debbie, would say is very big on branding and I'm more of the analytical type one. Also working on a lot of slide decks. So think we kind of index and lean in on areas that we're really strong in so that we really compliment each other there.

Brett Trainor (: 15:11

And the beauty is you get to pick and choose the projects that you want to work on, right? Which is even better. And that's what, I just love this story because again, hopefully people, I'm going to share this into the community as well, that find some other folks, right? Because accidentally, you know, back in like, nine, 10, I started a, I don't know if we talked about this, Ashley, a marketing agency.

Debbie Schwake (: 15:16

Mm -hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 15:35

Cause I was working at marketing or experience marketing services. And back in 2009, that was literally, smaller mailing lists, right? Digital was just coming on the radar. And so I, I had kind of built out some relationships with, you know, the Facebook, not Facebook themselves, but Google ads and those types of things. So I was going to create a partnership that we could offer our clients marketing services, but that's when the financial crisis hit and experience. Basically everybody stopped direct mail and

Debbie Schwake (: 15:45

Okay.

Brett Trainor (: 16:05

found myself quit from that corporate role. And so what did I do? Let's start a business at that time. Cause that makes a ton of sense, but it was kind of the same thing. I found a partner at the time who was a agency, you know, marketing agency guy out in New York, very different skill sets, but similar type of passions. And we created a partnership, right? That was kind of aligned around our nuts of skills, but unlike where you create a company.

And again, we can get into how what you created because we kind of had to join ventures that just came together for projects and one of us would bill, but then it would work out. we were never completely married in the sense of if something went sideways or one of us want to go a different direction, we were stuck with this. It was literally a joint venture between our two independent companies that found different. We had different rules of engagement of like if one of us found the deal, there was a percent and then he was spending more time.

Debbie Schwake (: 16:46

Hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 17:01

would build the percentage out. And where I'm going with this long winded answer is it creates a lot more flexibility in how to work together that it doesn't have to go all in and do this. But now I love what you guys are building so far. So thank you for letting me go to my rabbit hole for a second, but it's just such a good idea.

Ashley (: 17:19

Yeah.

And I think too what's helpful on a Tashcall standpoint is we have the same accountant across all the things. So that's been very helpful of like, okay, I got my QuickBooks, she has her QuickBooks and we have the joint QuickBooks and then he can look at all the things. So that's been helpful to have the same accountant.

Debbie Schwake (: 17:28

Mm.

Brett Trainor (: 17:28

Debbie Schwake (17:43.08)

And I think too that that goes back to that whole transparency thing. Like you can't get into a partnership like this without that commitment to one another to make sure everything's always above the board. And we know each other's financial goals. We know each other's billing. We know each other's. We know what's happening so that we leave room for where do these things fit within our goals because

Brett Trainor (: 17:43

That's awesome.

Debbie Schwake (: 18:11

Brett, as you so support, part of this is about life flexibility. Part of this is about getting that balance back in your life, which I don't think Ashley and I have had in years. And now we know, I'm gonna take this time off to do X or Y, but we stay committed to the goals that we've set together while we're still able to work in our own flexibility.

Brett Trainor (: 18:24

Peace.

Debbie Schwake (: 18:40

We've done that very intentionally. I have to say there's probably none of this except our meeting that was sort of unintentional, right?

Brett Trainor (: 18:49

Yeah, so good.

Ashley (: 18:49

Yeah, and I think just to build on that too is I think my working hours are so random now, like, because a lot of my mornings are filled with meetings, but in the afternoons I may, it's summer now, it will change once my daughter's back in school. I'll probably get more in a traditional pattern again, but like I would do something with my daughter in the afternoon, but then when she's at cheer for three hours, I would sit at cheer and work on all the tactical things. So I was working at night, but I didn't work.

in the afternoon. So like my times are very different now, but it's just all flax because that's okay.

Brett Trainor (: 19:19

So.

Brett Trainor (: 19:25

Yeah. And you're working for you, right? Versus somebody else's project. And that's what people think. Wow. You're working more now than I'm like, yeah, sometimes, but it's, it's form it's mine, right? It's not somebody else's and, know, kind of forced to do that for the paycheck and those types of things. So, and I'm curious, not that you may have plans because you're still relatively new. There's no reason why you couldn't scale this and bring in, you know, a couple of other folks, maybe with complimentary skills that could even.

Ashley (: 19:41

Mm

Brett Trainor (: 19:53

go further and kind of structure it the same way. That's why this is the future of work. And in some sense, I definitely think from, I don't even know who your target audience is, if you're going enterprise or if it's more mid tier, but more companies should be thinking about and taking advantage of this level of expertise. So there was kind of a question there where, one, do you see the flexibility that you could expand it down the road if you want to? And two,

Debbie Schwake (: 19:53

Okay.

Brett Trainor (: 20:19

you is kind of the ideal customers? Who are you seeing that are adopting this working with you guys?

Ashley (: 20:26

Debbie, I'll let you take.

Debbie Schwake (: 20:26

You want to take? OK, fair, fair. We were going to argue over who's taking that question. So I think that in terms of scaling, Brett, it's hard to know where this is going to go. Part of me wonders if this whole fractional in the consulting shingle that so many people are hanging up.

Brett Trainor (: 20:30

Thank

Debbie Schwake (: 20:48

might be sustainable from a need perspective. So if you think about for so many years, there's like two choices, you you either don't have consulting or you hire a big firm and it's millions and millions of dollars. And I think what we're seeing with the fractional movement right now is that people are understanding that they can access a high level of skill within their budget, which leads to the segue of, know, who are we targeting? We really see that

you know, that small to mid tier, depending on where a company categorizes itself as probably the biggest need, they can't afford the big consultant. They still have all the business issues, I guess, especially around process or around resource management or around growth plans, all of that. There's so much need for an outside in view. You know, there's so people, especially now,

leadership is so overwhelmed working in the business that they just need some viewpoint of someone that can look at their business and work on their business. And that's where I think people with expertise that are willing to put themselves out there, like Ashley and I are, to just come in and say, we're going to take an outside in view and help you kind of understand. And I'm going to segue to a differentiator that I know Ashley wants to answer here about.

about the difference in our consulting style is not that just pure advisory. Ash, you know where that's going.

Ashley (: 22:22

I do know where that's going. I, you know, just to build on it, I think too, it's, you know, we come from, again, we were in this unique position that a lot of people don't have this experience. Like we both come from very big consultant brands, but also industry experience. And I think that is very complimentary to these small, medium sized companies that they don't have access to those big firms. And we're providing that exact same tier.

Brett Trainor (: 22:24

Thank you.

Ashley (: 22:52

that expert level to your consulting at like a fraction of the cost. In addition to it's our philosophy as well is I know Brett, gave you this quote of we're not above the work and actually Debbie wrote that down the very first time we had lunch. We're not above the work. So it's like, we will go there, advise, have that outside view, but we will go ahead and go into your CRM. mean, client we're working on right now. We're very much hands on keyboard with doing

Brett Trainor (: 23:05

Yeah.

Ashley (: 23:23

marketing activities. So we can recommend and actually implement as well and I think that's what makes us stand out.

Debbie Schwake (: 23:33

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 23:33

Yeah, no, I love that. And I do use that all the time reference back. I don't get your quote exactly right. I get your hands dirty. That's the combination you bring strategy and the effort that it needs. And I think that's where the, the, again, back to the future piece of this is because I a hundred percent agree with Fractional, but I also encourage folks that are newer to this as they're starting to look and starting to work with companies, don't limit yourself to Fractional. If you find a business with a problem that you can solve, there's different ways you can do it, right?

Because I think again corporate or even consulting for sure teaches us to put in a box. This is our engagement. This is the way we do this. This is the only way we do this. And the fact is if you can come up with, you know, the good, better, best, right? There's somebody else in the community. Shannon was on not too long ago. She's HR. You know, her entry level offer is around just kind of a helpline or hotline. Like during the month.

I don't know what they actually meet, but the business can call if they've got a people issue during schedule 30 minutes to, you know, advisory where they do some strategy work every month and they meet with the team and then all the way up to fractional. So depending on where the business is, she can add that value back into it. And I think part of, you know, the challenge with fractional early on is you have to educate a lot of businesses of what fractional is, how it works.

Are they even ready for this fractional resource yet? Right? Or is it something that you can provide a service around and build towards? So, so I think keeping the flexibility is just something that I preach, but yeah, the doors are opening for these small businesses. And if they're open and willing to learn, they can unlock a lot of the growth at again, the fraction of the price. I tell people that, you know, with we use, I think I call it the power of 27 that

Debbie Schwake (: 25:02

Mm

Brett Trainor (: 25:19

I think it was Asana did a study that with knowledge workers and only 27 % of the time knowledge workers are actually doing knowledge work. So to me, corporate employees are knowledge workers. So if you translate that over 27%, so you go to small business to say, hey, I'm only charging you the 27 % that's actual outcomes and work, not the overhead, the unnecessary meetings, fire drills, whatever else that we're doing in corporate.

So I being able to translate that value to the small businesses could, we could see some really high growth small business companies if they embrace it, right? There's not all well, right? They're gonna be stuck in their ways, but I don't know, I'm excited for the future of this small business, especially again, thinking of you too with your backgrounds, four years ago, people would have said, nuts, there's no way you'd be working with the companies that you're working with now, but now they get.

you know, two superstars that can help them, two for the price of one, maybe not the price of one, but you know where I'm going with that. It's just talent is available for businesses if they're willing to think a little bit differently as well.

Ashley (: 26:22

Yeah, and I think I made a good point. just sparked something for, know, we, Deb and I has been talking about this a lot is what we're finding with these small to mid -sized companies is they may have not worked with consultants before and these companies may be looking for like tools to help solve their problems. And it's like, they don't need a tool. They just need an outside in perspective to be like, okay, this is where you need to.

Debbie Schwake (: 26:22

I.

Ashley (: 26:48

focus. This is what's going to have the most value and tools are not going to fix growth problems or know revenue recovery or anything like that. You really need to think of having a consultant with that outside in instead of just finding all these tools to help help your business. So we have found that that is definitely a sweet spot out there of targeting those types of companies that are looking for tools but actually they just need a third party to validate or give them a little bit of direction.

Debbie Schwake (: 27:18

Yeah, to that point too, Brett, sometimes they're looking to be additive when what they need to do is maybe take a look back and fix the process. For example, so many times, especially in marketing or sales or revenue, we don't have enough leads, we don't have enough opportunities, we don't have enough revenue.

And they want to be additive to that. So let's add another campaign. Let's add more salespeople. Let's add whatever it might be. And what, what Ashley and I do and have done is let's take a look at that full funnel to see where the problem exists. And in many cases it's, don't have enough selling time. And to your point, if they're only spending, you know, if, if 75 % of their salespeople time is admin.

That's not enough selling time. If you can solve that problem, that has a far more, more immediate effect to help your trained sales team. You're already vetted and trained sales team to sell more, to have more selling time. So I think it's things like that, that we, we forget to look really holistically. We're, really taking just a tiny step back from the problem statement and adding something on versus really taking a step back to say.

You know, let's really get to that root of the problem. We've not looked at this before. We don't have any preconceived notions about what's going on or not going on. We have to figure that out. And once we figure that out, we're going to be really honest with you about what we see.

Brett Trainor (: 28:52

It makes sense. And again, getting that fresh perspective at it and good transition, but thinking about because you get the independent, you have your own businesses and how do you both of you approach new business? Right. Because again, the number I hear from folks is networking is 75 % up to like 96 % of call it solo business, right? Fractionals, agencies, whatever you want to call it.

Is that what, how do you guys combine that? Or is it just when you come across opportunities, you're like, this a joint venture or a joint problem or is this independent? So if you guys wouldn't mind sharing some of your networking recommendations, tactics, strategies, things that are working for you, both independently and jointly would be really interesting.

Ashley (: 29:43

Go ahead.

Debbie Schwake (: 29:43

can start that one. I, Brett, you have to tell everybody what you're doing. You have to tell everybody what you're doing. And that doesn't mean you have to ask everybody for business. So I, I started in 2020, I decided I need to strengthen my network. It was a great year to start that in 2020, when everything was locked down, it was actually, I quit, but it was a great time to start that. So I worked on really building my network and holding that really dear to me.

through all these years. I work hard and I have a lot of people in my network because I make sure that I keep that. And now I continue to check in with my network and talk to my network and you can tell them what you're doing without asking them for business. And it's amazing the number of referrals that come along the way, just people saying, hey, I know this person that needs this thing. And would that be you?

Or is there someone that you know you could pass that along to so I would almost say 90 % of it for me is networking I've had one inbound someone saw it on my profile, which I didn't expect but Awesome, right? I'll take it. So otherwise, yeah, it's a lot of just just leaning into your network

Brett Trainor (: 30:57

Take it. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 31:05

And actually just I'll come to you a second bit with so Debbie with that because one of the things and again, just as you get more experienced with it, I do find myself offering more connections to folks when I'm networking, when they're not asking me for business, right? If they come to me and say, can you introduce me to X? Then I got to think and I don't know, maybe it's just the mindset, but if they were connecting for the first time, I had two calls today. I think I've introduced them, each of them to three different people and they weren't asking for it. So I think the non ask networking.

Right. There's a book and I'm going to draw a blank. It's one of the tag lines is don't be an ask whole line. Right. So it's just be. Yeah, exactly.

Debbie Schwake (: 31:40

Yeah, yeah. Don't don't pitch slap either. Don't pitch slap people. So you're not coming straight in and asking for business. No, that's totally true. You know, when I connect with people, but I really truly want to know how they're doing. I really truly want to know what they're doing, how I can support them, what what they've been working on, where they're struggling, all of that. That's always been my nature. So it

you know, it naturally comes up. you know, what are you up to? And, and I tend to share what I'm up to, but I never, I have never directly asked. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 32:19

Such a good point, it is people first. It is about building relationships and once you treat it as the long game, more good people I can add to my network, it's gonna pay off at some point. So good advice and Ashley, anything different?

Ashley (: 32:32

Yeah, I mean, think just to echo Debbie, I think everything has been very network based. mean, being in ad agencies for so long, you develop a pretty strong network as you're working with different clients and then different the agency network, especially Minneapolis, everyone changes agencies all the time. it becomes becomes very incestuous of everyone kind of knows each other. you know, when I decided to make this switch, obviously, to the LinkedIn announcement.

Debbie Schwake (: 32:58

you

Ashley (: 33:00

And then Debbie and I had a little bit of a Taylor Swift rollout with our brand on LinkedIn as well. I had a referral for, I think it was just like social media. So I explored it and I was thinking, maybe this is a Debbie thing. My plate's getting kind of full. That was just wasn't the opportunity. But yeah, that just came from someone seeing that I was out on my own. So they're like, hey, happy to introduce. I know someone's out there. So

Yeah, I think it's just been all referral based so far.

Debbie Schwake (: 33:31

Mm -hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 33:32

get out there and talk to people. you like talking to people, it's good. And even if not, then maybe it won't be the best. A good thing is I can tell people you just need to network. You don't have to sell. The sales will come if you're just genuinely connecting with people. it's good. And again, maybe I'll hit you to the marketing experts on here because one of the things I'll get from folks still incorporated is like, well, do I need to have my website done first? I'm like, no.

Right? mean, look at the corporate escapee. We now have what? 850 people in that community. I still don't have a website. I know I need a website, but I haven't done it yet. So we welcome both, you know, Debbie Ashley, your perspective on, I'm just getting started. What, what is it LinkedIn? Maybe that's what we'll close at times flying by. So maybe that's what I'll get your, both of your tips on how do you think about starting and what do we need to market ourselves, to get out of the box and Debbie, I'll go to you first.

Debbie Schwake (: 34:27

Yeah, I don't believe there's a magic thing that you need except to believe in yourself, that you've got something that you're able to talk about. And I'm going to tell you, it is vulnerable to step out and say, I'm an expert at this. I know how to do that. It's a totally vulnerable moment. So what I say you need more than a website is a friend to help support to say,

Absolutely, you do know how to do that. Yes, you've been doing that for years. You do have the expertise. That's way more important. Your confidence is way more important than any tool that you're going to have. That's just my take on it.

Brett Trainor (: 35:07

Yeah, no, I 100 % agree with you. It's funny. I wrote something not too long ago, you know, made up. But as I was thinking called the BAM framework, belief, action, momentum. Those are the things belief is the number one thing holding people back and then just take action. We corporate tells you to overanalyze everything and just like, no, have that conversation, try the first whatever it is, and then just get a little momentum and see where it goes. So that'd be 100 % agree with you on the belief, which

If you would have asked me before I left or even a year after I left, was, no, it's just expertise they're going to pay. But that belief is a huge. And again, I tell people you've earned the right to do this. You've been doing this for 20 or 30 years, right? You have the skills necessary to do that. So I'm sorry, Ashley, I could cut you off here.

Debbie Schwake (: 35:47

Mm

Ashley (: 35:54

I mean, I don't know how to beat that to be honest.

Brett Trainor (: 35:56

You

Ashley (: 35:58

Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, the confidence and like, yeah, I can do this. And, you know, when I made the decision to leave, I told myself is like, I know who I am and I know what I'm capable of. And I just have stood by that and a little Taylor Swift to help motivate me to, she was kind of my, I guess, the reputation album was kind of my.

my theme song as I exited because it was just kind of motivating to me. You know, to your question about the website, you know, I myself did my own website because that was important to me. I'm a marketer. I enjoy doing it. was like something I could easily do on the couch. But for me, I know that's really easy to do. But I understand that for someone that's not in marketing and is not platform agnostic, it may be a little bit hard, but

That was just for me, just to have fun and have more of a validation tool. Debbie and I also built one for our and coalition as well. Same thing, not a huge, a lot of effort, but we just wanted something that someone could validate us. I think the big thing for LinkedIn that was really important was that when you have, and this should be pretty easy, at least get a logo. Maybe if...

Debbie Schwake (: 37:02

Okay.

Ashley (: 37:22

Go down Fiverr, you can buy something for $25, but on LinkedIn, just to have your title of your company that you founded with that logo next to it, that's not a big lift. That's like a 10 minute deal, just that makes it a little bit more polished just to have that logo next to your name.

Brett Trainor (: 37:41

Yeah, it's such a good point. had somebody the other day, actually one of the people I was working with helping them get out of corporate and one of her biggest momentum boosters was I got my LLC, right? I'm like, cause I was telling him like, really don't until you get your a hundred percent sure. But no, no, almost the more I hear, the more it's just confirmation. I'm doing the right thing. So you get the logo, you get the LLC.

It just legitimizes it, even though you may not need it, it just, again, in your mind, which is where most of the battle takes place, is to have that. And maybe just the last question. again, I have the clients I've worked with, don't care if I have a website or not, because it's the relationship and the meetings. And again, maybe they go and validate and look at it, looked at LinkedIn. So that's kind of the other piece of it, right? Cause do your clients care?

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. In the early days, I would think I wouldn't put as much effort into that. But curious, you guys are the marketing pros. So I see you both shaking your head.

Debbie Schwake (: 38:41

No, I don't think so, I think sometimes we create things to validate something that it really probably requires that we say or provide more direct proof. So there's nothing that we could put on the website to make Client A feel 100 % confident. We really have to have that discussion with Client A to say, here's specific to you, here's how we can back up.

the work that we do. Here's how we can prove that we've got the experience that you need. Way more than, you know, because we know so much of what goes on websites goes on a website and stays there forever and no one ever updates and no one ever looks at and whatever that might be. So I think it's so much in that relationship and having that synergy with a potential client that says we're going to form this trust based on a contract, but it's also a trust.

that we're gonna do what we say we're gonna do.

Brett Trainor (: 39:45

I think Dad did that actually.

Ashley (: 39:47

I mean, not related, but related in a way. We did do a photo shoot too, of ourselves.

Debbie Schwake (: 39:52

Hahaha!

Brett Trainor (: 39:53

But again, that's the humanizing piece of it, right? mean, people are going to want to see. And again, I found it's crazy as this TikTok thing has been for me. It's when I get on calls with people, they're like, my God, that is your office. I'm like, yes, it's my office. Right? mean, because it humanizes that piece of it. So I do think the video, if you're going to do anything, just, you know, some, had Marcus Sheridan on the...

They ask you answer on the podcast recently. that's what he said. Like, you, huge.

Ashley (: 40:21

Debbie loves him.

Debbie Schwake (: 40:23

I'm a big fan of Marcus. I hope he sees this podcast now. I'm a huge fan of Marcus. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 40:30

And he was good on the pie. He delivered on the podcast too. I was surprised he was coming on, but, cause we are obviously, again, look, you've got 800 and if you include tick tock a couple, lot more, they have no idea how to just set up basics. So, and, you know, sales, and I just believe in the fundamentals of, you know, we get away from that. So, anyway, so.

Debbie Schwake (: 40:31

He's so good. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 40:51

Awesome. right. Well, I've kept you guys longer than I said I was going to keep you, but is any, anything we didn't cover you think we should share anything else? The audience should know. I'd like to keep bringing you guys back on occasion just to check in, see how it's going. Because again, I think I want to show people what's out there. And I do think what you guys are doing is kind of the future. And also I'm going to say, I know I told you offline, I'm waiting for your to the podcast to come out because I will be signing up once you guys.

can find some time to record a few episodes, but I think you guys would be great doing that as well.

Ashley (: 41:20

Awesome.

Debbie Schwake (: 41:22

Thank you, Brett. Thank you. think just, you know, lean on other people in this time. I'm very fortunate that during this, you know, it is a vulnerable time when you start a business. It's a vulnerable time to do your own thing, whatever that means. And, you know, I'm very lucky to have met Ashley and she helped push me over that hump of being afraid of doing this, even though I was kind of doing it on my own, you know, anyway.

just to have that person that can help support you and help your confidence and remind you that you are completely capable of doing the thing. So that's helpful to me.

Brett Trainor (: 42:06

Ashley, any parting thoughts or wisdom?

Ashley (: 42:07

I mean, this is going to be a little bit of a gosh, but like, and I've said this to Debbie before, but in the early, you know, after that lunch, I was like, my gosh, she wants to work with me. Like, I feel so honored. So it's just like this, wow, this like CMO of all this experience once she's picking me. So I know it again, it was just like this match made in heaven love at first sight in the business part in a business partnership standpoint.

Brett Trainor (: 42:35

Awesome, awesome. And lastly, if people want to connect with you, I'll put this in the show notes as well. What's the best way to do it and where can we go find more information? I know we've got websites, but what's the best way to reach both of you?

Debbie Schwake (: 42:48

LinkedIn for me, 100 % LinkedIn.

Ashley (: 42:52

LinkedIn and then our joint venture is andcoalition .com.

Brett Trainor (: 42:59

it. And do you have a LinkedIn company page for that? Again, I know we touched on it, but that's a good recommend. You'd recommend having a company page for your solo venture.

Ashley (: 43:02

We do. Yep.

Debbie Schwake (: 43:02

We do? We do.

Ashley (: 43:10

Yeah, just very basic, making sure that your logo is there. Yep.

Brett Trainor (: 43:14

Okay, awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. It was great to learn more. And again, I love where the future's taking this. So folks, if you're listening out there and you don't think you can do it alone, find a partner, right? Because again, just having that support is a piece of it. again, it just shows you don't have to be complimentary. You can be in the same field, in the same function and build a successful business. So thank you both for joining us.

Have a great rest of your day and we will be checking back in with you before too long.

Debbie Schwake (: 43:45

Thanks, Brett.

Ashley (: 43:45

All right. Thank you, Brett.