Own the Room: How to Communicate So You’re Heard, Seen & Respected w/ Jake Stahl

Brett Trainor (: 00:01

12 years ago, my guest today watched his entire life collapse. Addiction took his marriage, his home, his identity, and worst of all, his credibility. He had to rebuild everything from scratch. But here's the interesting part. The turning point wasn't rehab. It wasn't a new job. It wasn't even a second chance. And you can confirm this in a second, Jake. But it was learning how to read people, not their words. It was reading their signals. The jaw tightening, the eyes shifting, the tone changing.

And Jake Stahl took these observations and built a framework called Strata. And today he teaches thousands of people how to show up with clarity, presence, and influence without performing, which I think is a key piece of this, without pushing and without pretending. In fact, we talk up on your authentic self. And here why the audience of this matters is if you're escaping corporate and building a life you control requires that one core skill, right? You've got to be able to connect with people. You've got to...

Jake Stahl (: 00:55

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 00:57

establish those, those relationships. So, Jake's new book, Own the Room is one of the clearest explanations that I've seen of why conversations fail, why people feel invisible and how you can finally be heard, seen and respected in the moments that matter most. I think reflecting some of our corporate experiences, this really, really resonates. So with all that Jake, welcome back to the podcast.

Jake Stahl (: 01:17

yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 01:23

Brett, thanks for having me back again. I really appreciate it. And thanks for the great intro.

Brett Trainor (: 01:28

No, it was my pleasure. And I was telling you offline, I really, really enjoyed your book. I think it's going to help a lot of people because I've seen, and we can, get into this, right? There's the sales aspect where you get the sales tactics and read the room and, know, make sure you, you twist the pain and like that just make those books make me uncomfortable because unless that's in your nature, it doesn't work. And then there's the other one that just, where you say just listening is a superpower.

Jake Stahl (: 01:32

Thank you.

Jake Stahl (: 01:50

Me too.

Brett Trainor (: 01:57

which a hundred percent agree, but it doesn't go far enough. That's when literally within, I don't know, the first chapter of your book, I'm like, I was nodding my head and I'm like, yeah, it is the presence. is the cues. is those types of things. So anyway, I'm going to shut up. didn't write the book. So like I said, I just wanted to tell you upfront, I really did enjoy that this is going to become one of my recommended readings for, new escapees, actually for anybody, but especially folks that are going out on their own. So.

Jake Stahl (: 02:17

Thank you.

Jake Stahl (: 02:23

Thank you.

Brett Trainor (: 02:26

I don't know where you want to start, maybe start us back at the beginning. What was the idea for this?

Jake Stahl (: 02:30

Yeah. So for many years, Brett, I had what I envisioned or what I saw as great success. was touring all over the country, doing keynote addresses, did training across seas. had a great corporate career. Everything was excellent. And I had taught the martial arts for 20 years. And after doing that, your knees start to bark back at you a little bit.

So on my third knee surgery, I couldn't get off the opioids I was on. And worse than that, it was hard because you needed to take more just to feel normal. You know, it wasn't a, me get high thing. It was a, crap, I just want to feel like me thing. And that led to a two year spiral. Lost my savings, lost my house, lost my wife, got a divorce.

moved back in with my parents of all things. And the one thing that I could never reconcile, Brett, was 13 years ago, opioid abuse was not looked at the way it is today. Today, people look at you in recovery and they say, good for you. I'm proud of you. Opioids bad, you good. 13 years ago, it wasn't like that. They would look at you as an addict. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 03:53

it's the people thought it was your choice. You screwed up. can't. Right. Okay. Interesting.

Jake Stahl (: 03:58

And listen, for the most part, it was me. The pills didn't jump in my mouth. They didn't sneak up on me at night and throw themselves at me. I took them. So the hard part about it was finally recognizing on my own that it was time to quit. Because I hid it so well, nobody knew. Nobody. And when I wound up going into recovery, it was a shockwave through everybody.

Brett Trainor (: 04:27

Interesting.

Jake Stahl (: 04:28

But the point I want to make is not, woe is me. The point I want to make is at the time when I think Philip Seymour Hoffman had just overdosed at that point, the famous actor, and everybody looked at him and said, poor him. Wow. He was really a victim. But when they looked at me, it's like, you're disgusting. You should have known better. And it struck me. Why is that?

Brett Trainor (: 04:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 04:54

And what I discovered, Brett, was that it's all about presence. The actors already had the love and accolades, and so they were looked at as a victim. And naturally, I didn't necessarily have that. And so I started reading the way people reacted when I came into a room. And I had to read it good. If they were saying, Jake, you know, good for you that you're recovering, but they look down into the left, it's like, I know what you're thinking. And

So the book, Brett, and the whole premise behind this is it's a survival guide. It was how I came back from being viewed by everybody as a liability and now have a business that's remarkably successful and a SaaS product that is just taking off. have a loving new wife that we have a beautiful marriage.

So part of the book was, hey, this is what you can do to be seen, heard and respected, regardless of how you were seen before. But it's also a clarion call to people that say, listen, you may think you problems that are overwhelming and you're never going to get out of it, but you will. I did. You can too. So the book kind of served that dual purpose.

Brett Trainor (: 06:09

Yeah.

That's awesome. And congratulations on that. mean, first and foremost, that's that was the important thing. And again, the fact that you had the foresight to think through, right, that most of us just have conversations, we don't even think about it, right? We get embarrassed, or we do these things, but, but actually trying to read the room or read how people were is one is interesting that you weren't were you trained in that? Or was that something that just naturally became curious about and driven to figure it out? Or where did that? Because it wouldn't

Jake Stahl (: 06:13

Thank you. Appreciate that.

Brett Trainor (: 06:42

dawned on me to start thinking. It's a superpower, right? But it's just it's not something that I would have thought of.

Jake Stahl (: 06:48

I appreciate all the compliments on that, but it got to be a survival mechanism. So my degree is in psychology from Syracuse University. I have a master's certification in neuro-linguistic programming, which is what Tony Robbins made famous. He's really our poster child for NLP. And I've done a lot of studying with social psychology and it occurred to me, Brett, that we may be unique on the outside, but internally we all process

Brett Trainor (: 06:55

Okay.

Jake Stahl (: 07:18

pretty much the same. We all have that FOMO, we all have that set of biases that we live by or the prejudices, we all respond to love and hate and fear. And that's really what I started tapping into. So if you're saying to me, Jake, I'm proud of you for your recovery, but I see your eyes are darting or you're sitting back in your chair, I know there's something else cooking underneath. And that's what I had to start to read to discern between what you're saying

And what that caption above your head is actually saying, you know what I mean? Yeah. Sure.

Brett Trainor (: 07:51

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to dig, dig into that, but before we do, I don't want to gloss over the fact that you are one of the original, the OGs of the escapee world. And you know, that you have, cause you were doing the coaching, you were part of the original frack, right? That the, the, uh, I want to call it community, but the, the conference that, that still goes every year.

You've got, had your solo business, then you built this AI software SaaS program that's, that's running. Now you've written a book. So you're living the escapee dream. So I would encourage folks to go back. think that it was April of 24 was the last time that you had you on the podcast. People can search for your name and go listen to that story. Cause that, was a really interesting episode in itself. So I didn't want it for new listeners to not.

Jake Stahl (: 08:22

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 08:40

hear your whole story. We're not going to go into that today, but they can go back and listen to the previous episodes. So, all right. So you've got this idea, you're writing the book and I'm so let's maybe in this time you can tell me otherwise, but maybe give us the overview of strata, right? How to, how to think about it. And one of the things I'm a big fan of is the Pareto principle. So give me the 80 20 of, of this, what are the things that we can take from each of the five that we can start doing today?

Jake Stahl (: 08:43

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 09:08

before folks can go order your book and start to practice exactly what you're outlining.

Jake Stahl (: 09:16

Sure. So the whole concept is based on the fact that you're really saying a boatload of things about yourself before you open your mouth. All the time. The way you look, the way you carry yourself, the things you put on social media, you are persuading people every day. Right? I wish I could take credit. Robert Shieldini, the great social psychologist coined that term.

Brett Trainor (: 09:38

I love that.

Brett Trainor (: 09:44

yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 09:46

Yeah. So, pre-suading is what we're doing all the time. And this book is built on the fact that it's built on an acronym called Strata. And the first letter of Strata is S for signal. So, what signal are we sending to people all the time? When we walk into a room, when we get on the phone, when we post a picture on LinkedIn or we post an article, what signal are we sending?

And then more importantly, what signal are you reading from them? know, arguably one thing that they put out in studies, and I've seen varying percentages, but I think most people agree that about 80 % of communication is body language.

Brett Trainor (: 10:33

Yeah, that makes sense.

Jake Stahl (: 10:35

So theoretically, if we can't read body language, we're missing 80 % of the conversation. So the first part of my book is about signal is how do you start to understand the signals that you're sending and the signals you're taking in and how reading those signals is completely unconscious. Our brains are wired to see them. We're just not consciously doing it.

Brett Trainor (: 11:01

Yeah, for sure. Again, you made me a little self-conscious after I read the book thinking, oh, geez, he's coming on the podcast. I better practice what he's preaching. can I re, to your point, there was, we're friends on TikTok. There was a woman that I didn't know. She DMed me and said, Hey, you you should, you should try uncrossing your arms, right? In your videos, it may be closing. I had no idea I was even doing that. And then when I went back and looked at videos,

Jake Stahl (: 11:07

Thanks.

Brett Trainor (: 11:29

It was like 50 straight where I'm just sitting there. Just, it was comfortable for me. had no other ill intention of it, but so now you can see, if you go back and look through my history, you can see where she made that comment where I was like, thank you very much for telling me. didn't even know I was doing it. Now I intentionally trying to do something else with my hands versus sitting there with it across off, but you're absolutely right. Right. We just don't even think about it. At least I don't think about it or I hadn't thought about it. will now.

Jake Stahl (: 11:35

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 11:51

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 11:56

Yeah, I coached a guy that was a founder and he used to cross his arms all the time. And it wasn't that he was closed off. It was more of a, don't look at me. Don't see me. Listen to what I say, but don't look too closely. So it wasn't that he was rejecting people. It's that he just was insecure about what he was putting off. And he thought if people look too closely, they'd reject him. So signals like that.

can mean a variety of things, but it's all in the eye of the observer, right? How do they perceive the signal you're putting off?

Brett Trainor (: 12:33

Yeah. And just so for the audience as well. Cause one of the things I really also appreciate about the book was you get into there's personal opportunities with this as well. Cause you think it was your daughter, you were talking about that had this school issue and the signals that she was presenting. And sometimes it is more of a personal thing that will help in relationships versus just on a business context. So just want to make sure people clear this isn't a business only, this is a human to human, right? As AI takes over the world and everything else, the ability to have and read, you know, human to

Jake Stahl (: 12:58

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 13:03

I think is going to be critical. So anyway, I didn't mean to side note that, but I didn't want to forget.

Jake Stahl (: 13:06

No, you're good. And actually there is a piece in there about why I'm a firm believer that marriages start to break down is in the beginning, we're so conscious of the other person's signals that they're putting off that we really hone in and we pay attention. But as we get used to each other in a marriage or a relationship of any kind, some of those signals we don't pay attention to as much anymore, but they're still equally important. Right?

Brett Trainor (: 13:34

Yes.

Jake Stahl (: 13:34

So as soon as we start to miss those signals, communication starts to break down. So one of the rallying cries of the book is, signal is first for a reason. It's the most important thing. You miss that, you're missing just about everything.

Brett Trainor (: 13:50

Yeah, it's so powerful. And again, it's because again, when I first read it, was thinking, introductions first time we're meeting or if we're having a conversation now I can look to see, are they distracted or there and we'll get into the trigger here in a second because I think that was another eye opener for me. But it's but I think you're right. It is an everyday in our relationships and especially some of you're comfortable with, you know, like we've been married 30 plus years now. So yeah, we go through emotions quite a bit. And there's times where if I could read the room a little bit or read her

Jake Stahl (: 14:04

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 14:11

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 14:20

and read through those signals a little bit, we could avoid some of the conversations. But anyway, so.

Jake Stahl (: 14:27

Yeah. And as we go through the book, I think you'll agree, Brett, that once you see what some of the signals are, you can't unsee it. Now you're like, Oh my God, I see that everywhere now. You know, I see somebody nodding or sitting back in their chair. What am I missing? So part of the book is, is just look, just notice, and you're going to be 80 % of the way there.

Brett Trainor (: 14:48

Yeah. Yeah. Which is fantastic. Again, you gave me a little PSTD or whatever that is when it's back to my corporate days thinking through because every scenario you're like, yep, I've been there with that type of person. And you even name them at the end, I think. I don't know if it's in the appendix, but you have a name for each of the anyway. So, all right, let's keep you going. We'll hit that. all right. So trigger. Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 15:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Sure.

The second letter is trigger, T for trigger. And one thing we need to realize is that we're always running on a history in our head. So our brain looks at something and says, what can I associate that with in the past? And then I can adjust accordingly, which is why a lot of us hear what our dad or mom said, or a criticism we heard 30 years ago. We hear something that triggers a memory and we start to react.

Brett Trainor (: 15:39

Right.

Jake Stahl (: 15:40

And a great example I didn't put in the book was I was just doing a meeting probably three months ago with a lovely couple, man and a woman, and she had earrings and eyeglasses that matched. They literally looked like they were made in the same factory. I've never seen anything like it. So I said to her, said, man, I really dig your glasses and your earrings are really cool. Immediately, she started adjusting her wedding ring.

pulling it off, putting it back on, twirling it. And it's like, boy, I crossed some line somewhere that I didn't mean to. And whether it was her reminding herself that she was married or telling me she was married, whatever it was, it wasn't great. So I triggered something in her that could have derailed everything. But I noticed it, I reframed it, and we went OK from there. But we need to not only understand that we're giving off signals,

but we need to understand those signals are triggering something in the other person.

Brett Trainor (: 16:39

Yeah. And is it a, cause one thing I notated is do you find it's always the negative or can it be positive? Like if I'm having a conversation with you and then we talk about, you know, AI or something that's important to you and you, you light up, it's going to give me the trigger from the other direction as well. Right. So this isn't just a, it's two way, a two way street. Okay.

Jake Stahl (: 16:51

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 16:58

Correct. Yep. And that's why when we hit on something and somebody else gets really excited, it's like we just triggered them the other way, which is equally valuable. But the thing the book points out is that a trigger is not a failure. That's the beginning of the whole conversation. You're starting to tap into their psyche and see what moves them in either direction. So oftentimes in society now we hear somebody say, that triggered me.

Brett Trainor (: 17:10

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 17:27

Trigger is good. That gives me insight into you and what direction I need to go. So the book paints triggers as very good.

Brett Trainor (: 17:38

Yeah, because you're getting somewhere. One way the other, you've got some interesting. And again, it's not just a sales. I mean, I can see where it makes sense in sales. So let me take a step back before I... There's a lot of the folks exiting. think they're thinking about, right, now I...

Jake Stahl (: 17:40

Yeah, right? Yeah, that's where it all begins. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 17:58

I've been in corporate, I've never actually had to have conversations with prospects before. you know, the instinct is just to pitch and say, all right, you, you're my prospective buyer. Here's what I do. Do you want to buy it versus the listening and the trigger? And I think, again, I really didn't pay attention, maybe consciously looking for triggers, but I guarantee you, I will now right as we go through this. Yeah, you can't. That's what, like I said, I appreciate about this is it was.

Jake Stahl (: 18:01

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 18:19

You can't unsee it.

Brett Trainor (: 18:28

in one those eye-opening books, right? It wasn't, it's not about sales, even though there's a benefit to it, but yeah, so, all right, so the trigger and, all right, what else do we, is there anything else we need to know about trigger?

Jake Stahl (: 18:41

No, I think it's just important to understand that triggering something is a good thing. We just need to make sure we understand it. And in the book, I list a number of triggers that you can take a look for. They're the most popular triggers we hit. And it talks a little bit about how to deal with those triggers once you hit them.

Brett Trainor (: 19:04

Yeah, that makes sense. And you mentioned reframe, so I'm guessing that's the next in our.

Jake Stahl (: 19:06

Yep. Reframe is next. Yeah. So reframes, in my opinion, Brett, we should be teaching in school. Reframing to me is the most valuable thing we can do. And the best way to talk about what a reframe is, is think about a doctor that tells a cancer patient. 40 % of people who have this cancer die. That sounds terrible, but the reframe is.

60 % of the people who have that cancer live. Right? That's a simple reframe. And many times when we're talking to ourselves, a simple reframe would solve a problem. And the one I illustrate in the book is there were many times that I said, I was a former addict. I'm 59 years old. What have I got to give? I'm too old for this. My reframe is I'm 59, baby. I've never been more pro-

Brett Trainor (: 19:38

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 20:05

cared for something than I am right now. And those two things are the same message, but have completely different meanings to them.

Brett Trainor (: 20:09

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 20:15

Yeah. And I see this every day talking to people stuck in corporate, right? They're kind of like, I'm going to retire. I'm like, no, man, I'm, I'm counting on 30 more years. And how am going to make these 13 years the best years of it? So you're right. Because when I was still in corporate, I needed that reframe to think about going forward. So again, I think you're absolutely right. This is another thing that we take for granted as part of the communication. And it's, you know, some people, um,

Jake Stahl (: 20:33

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 20:40

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 20:44

potentially would say, when they're pessimists, they think they're a realist. I'm like, no, that's not true. Right? That is not an accurate statement. I can be an optimist and still be a realist. Right? So I think it is getting that reframe. All right. So talk about when we're in communication, how do you, cause I think this is an area that could get forced if you try to force a reframe into it. So what's, what's your kind of recommendation? How do we think about this?

Jake Stahl (: 20:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 21:07

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 21:12

There's a simple format with a reframe. And to me, the simple format is you're not doing this. You're doing this. So you think about what they're not doing and what they're really doing. I'll give you a real life example. Just earlier today, I was coaching a client and she said, I feel really insecure about this call. I'm not prepared. I feel like an idiot. I let you down. And I said,

It sounds to me like you're not letting me down. You're concerned about the quality of our conversation and you're going to be better prepared next time. And she brightened up right away. She's like, yeah, yeah, that's right. But it's the reframe that takes it from you're not doing to you are doing. I had a founder who was just absolutely insane. He's like, Jake,

Brett Trainor (: 21:51

You

Jake Stahl (: 22:08

I've made so many mistakes, I don't want to make another mistake again. And I said, it sounds like the fact that you made the mistakes is what makes you the best equipped person to finally make this decision. He said, yeah, I guess that is helpful knowing what doesn't work. So all we're doing is taking their frame of mind and we're giving them just a different view of it.

Brett Trainor (: 22:37

I it makes sense. Yeah. I mean, again, my mind's spinning. If you can see the wheels turning in zoom, I don't know if you can, but I'm like thinking just the conversations I've had today. I'm like, that's exactly right. It's, it's helping in kind of the old, there was a sales technique that this is what I heard type of thing, but it's, it's, it's much more direct as part of sales process. think if just, if you get good at this, like if you're curious, and again, I think it is a state of mind. If you have this state of mind, if you don't believe what you're saying, you're right. You're not going be able to get a,

Jake Stahl (: 22:47

Hmm. Hmm!

Brett Trainor (: 23:07

You're not gonna be able to reframe something unless you have confidence in what you're doing with the with the reframe I'm assuming that's probably true for all of this, right?

Jake Stahl (: 23:16

Yeah, and I would say this is the most misunderstood piece because I get people that have read the book or I've coached and they're like, that's manipulation. It's not. It's giving you back your perspective from a fresh look. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to give you a different way to view the opinion you already have.

Brett Trainor (: 23:20

Okay.

Jake Stahl (: 23:39

A great example is we just moved into this new house and I wanted a garage. Got to have a garage. Got to put my stuff in a garage. And my wife said, have you ever considered a shed? I'm like, no, I don't want to shed. And she said to me, she goes, it sounds like you really just want a place to put your stuff. And a shed would do that. And it's like, yeah. Yeah. All I, all I really want is a place to put my stuff.

Brett Trainor (: 23:39

Yeah, I...

Brett Trainor (: 23:50

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 24:03

Right here.

Jake Stahl (: 24:06

But that reframe was what I needed. Didn't change my mind. It just gave me a fresh perspective I hadn't thought of.

Brett Trainor (: 24:14

Yeah, that's so good. So true. And again, it's conversations we have every day. it's just what's the root, almost the root cause analysis if we want to get super technical, right? It's getting down to what's really driving your hesitation, your fear, your any of these things, right? It's like the folks that know they're done with corporate, right? They see no future. They know it's not there, but they're not taking action because they're stuck on the what happens if this doesn't work or these.

And it is reframing to say, what happens if it does? You have control. have these. That's why, like I said, I'm, I am a optimist at heart and will always be that way. But I battle my wife all the time because she's a pessimist by nature. And so we have healthy discussions on again, realist pessimists anyway, but I think this will help our communication because then, I don't have to just push back. can say, is this really what's bothering you? So anyway, I think this is.

Jake Stahl (: 24:45

Right? That's exactly right.

Jake Stahl (: 25:01

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 25:09

Yeah. Yep.

Brett Trainor (: 25:12

outstanding. All right, so we can get the reframe tricky, spend some time on it. The next one, anchor, talk, talk to me about anchor. What is anchor?

Jake Stahl (: 25:17

Yeah. was anchor. Right. So we've read their signal. We've realized the trigger. We've reframed the moment and now the anchor. And this is a biggest, really big sticking point for a lot of people because we need to anchor somebody in a spot and in a moment. And a lot of times what we do when we're coming out of corporate America is we think, I got to push what I'm doing. I got to sell what I'm doing.

But the reality is you need to just anchor somebody in the moment. And the way to do that is to get them emotionally involved, show them why it's the clearest path, and then give them something that will anchor it. So a great example is if I'm really in a great mood, I will put two of my fingers together, like my forefinger, my thumb. And so I always associate great mood with put my finger, my thumb together. That's my anchor.

Brett Trainor (: 26:09

How interesting.

Jake Stahl (: 26:18

Then later, if I'm in a lousy mood and I put my finger, my thumb together, if I've anchored properly, that resets me. I'm back in the moment. I'm where I need to be. An example I use in the book is we talked with a sales team and they really were tired of the old, you know, let's just sell them. And I said, what would happen?

Brett Trainor (: 26:25

Interesting.

Jake Stahl (: 26:43

if you did X, Y, and Z. And the person said to me, I would have to admit that I gave a shit.

And that became their anchor. Whenever they were having a problem, they would read a plaque they put up on the wall that said, give a shit. And all of a sudden they were back in focus again. So it's keeping you involved in the moment and making it a strong enough association that it changes the way you're thinking about things in the moment.

Brett Trainor (: 26:58

you

Interesting.

Brett Trainor (: 27:09

So the anchor is more of a personal. You're not looking to anchor something in the other person. You're looking to anchor this in you. Is that right? Can't be both. Okay.

Jake Stahl (: 27:17

It's, it can be both. Yeah. So my fingers putting together is anchoring me, but that give a shit anchored the entire team.

Brett Trainor (: 27:26

Oh, got it. Now it makes sense. Yeah, so if you can get, again, shift the context or shift the to back. Yeah, because it's so easy to get out of that mode and forget what we're doing and to reel it. And I don't want to say reel it back in, but a little bit it is, right? It's getting it back on track. That makes sense. That one, I think this one would be, I'm just thinking personally, this one would be the hardest for me. I'd probably have to work at that.

Jake Stahl (: 27:53

It is difficult. And in the book, it talks about three ways to anchor something. So it gives you three distinct things to think about when anchoring that make it just a little bit easier.

Brett Trainor (: 28:05

Yeah, I'm thinking just as we go through, hopefully for the audience, it'll help too. So I'm thinking that hopefully they're thinking it is right when I'm coming out of corporate, I don't know. I hate sales. I don't know how to sell. I can't sell. can't do this. And I, again, maybe this is reframing is you're not selling your problem solving, right? You're solving a problem. And in order to solve this problem, there's a fee associated with solving the problem. And I looked back, was my, one of my oldest daughter was in an internship at the trunk

Jake Stahl (: 28:29

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 28:35

club selling clothes, right? You the member trunk club where you dress men, wardrobes. And she was funny because she's like, Dad, I don't mind the cold call. It's when I talked to one of your friends or somebody that that I'm super uncomfortable that I'm making them buy something they don't need. I'm like, well, do they dress well? No, then they have a problem. You're solving a problem with it. And so, Hunter, I know we're kind of back to anchor, but I'm also reef, think getting that back into the

Jake Stahl (: 28:38

I do. Yep.

Jake Stahl (: 28:57

Yeah. It's okay.

Brett Trainor (: 29:04

or the reframe, but this would be more of an anchor of getting people back. No, no, you're not selling, right? Don't, don't get hung up on sales. This is about a problem solving. if you, again, pull that back to the core of a corporate escapee is it's problem solving, not job descriptions, not selling, not anything else. I think I need to do, I do that a lot one off, but I don't actually the way we're I'm thinking about now, I need to make that one of the tenants of talking about it. One of the anchors is right. It's not sales.

Jake Stahl (: 29:32

Well, and here's a great way for your audience to think about it too, Brett, is when you get on the phone with somebody, we often say, hi, how are you? And it starts off with this little conditioned back and forth that doesn't really mean anything. But when I get on with people on the phone and I think you can attest to this, I'm always like, man, I was looking forward to talking to you. Thanks for taking the time. There's never a hi, how are you? So if I can anchor my prospect into being in a good mood talking to me,

That's one of the best anchors I can set. So when I reach out to make an appointment with them, they're like, my God, it's Jake. He always makes me feel good when we talk. So that's a really strong anchor for anybody going into their own business is make sure that a call is always about your client. It's never starts with hi, how are you? It's always great to see you. Thanks for taking the time. Anchor goodwill with every conversation.

and you'll never be the luck for a customer.

Brett Trainor (: 30:31

Yeah, that's so good. And now that I'm thinking about it, I don't do it intentionally, but my best calls are when I do bring energy to it, right? Energy is that you can always bring that. And if I'm excited and I'm energized, especially after the conversation. But again, never put any thought into the intro of it now, but it makes perfect sense.

Jake Stahl (: 30:39

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 30:51

The fact is there's a lot of people that are good at strata unknowingly.

Brett Trainor (: 30:56

Yeah. Well, I think we probably all do pieces of it unintentionally sometimes, but, but, but I think where, again, where I've seen it go off the rails the other way is one, you don't believe it. it's just, you're using it as a script or a tactic versus something that you're truly embracing and believing in and looking for and trying to connect with people. it's, think that's an important distinction. You just can't go through the motions with this. It's not a, it's not a sales tactic. If you will, it's going to backfire.

Jake Stahl (: 30:59

yeah. Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 31:07

Right.

Jake Stahl (: 31:13

Correct.

Jake Stahl (: 31:22

Correct.

Brett Trainor (: 31:26

gloriously if you if you attempt to do it that way.

Jake Stahl (: 31:29

Well, and to your point, you can set a negative anchor. If you talk to somebody and you always complain to them, or you're never willing to hear them out, you've anchored a lousy emotion to every time you call. Everybody on this podcast can relate to the fact that they get a phone call once in a while where they look at the phone and they go, I'm not taking it. That's a reverse anchor, right? You've anchored a lousy feeling with your phone number. So anchoring is really strong.

Brett Trainor (: 31:33

yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 31:49

Uhhh, right, yeah! Yeah!

Or so good, so good. All right, let's on to the next T which is transfer. Talk to us about transfer.

Jake Stahl (: 32:03

Yeah, this is a super simple concept. It's how do I make my idea theirs so that they want to defend it even when I'm not around. And some simple ways to do that are, Brett, if you adopted my service, tell me about how you would describe it to your team. Tell me what a success would look like once you've started using my service.

So we want to get them picturing in their head as their own idea. And when you get somebody to talk to you about your idea, it transfers. So if I force you into something, I sell you something, that's not a transfer. That's something they're easily going to forget. And as soon as you walk away, they're going to be done. But if I've made it your idea,

Brett Trainor (: 32:32

you want, yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 32:58

I put a quote in the book, think somewhere that said, I don't think we ever talk anybody into anything. They just eventually decide it's their idea. So if I can shortcut that and make it their idea to start, I've cut out weeks of phone calls and followups and emails. And this is why people get ghosted. Cause you force them down a road. It wasn't their idea and they've got nothing invested in it. So ghosting is the next best option.

Brett Trainor (: 33:07

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 33:27

Yeah, and thinking through it again, again, replaying scenarios, but I mean, I think that that's so true and it's not necessarily because of an ego thing, right? It's not because, I didn't think about now I can't do this. It's, I feel like I'm buying something back to the buying versus solving. And if I'm buying something, there's less chance that I'm going to use it or be as excited about bringing it on board. But if you can get them to think through how it's, you know, going to make their life better or it's going to prove or whatever it

Jake Stahl (: 33:31

Yeah?

Jake Stahl (: 33:36

No.

Jake Stahl (: 33:44

Yep.

Brett Trainor (: 33:57

But yeah, you're 100 % right. They need to you think about it from our own side where we bought into something where Even if I subconsciously don't realize it was my idea or not But once I buy into it and I'm on board then all of a sudden Yeah, it's much easier to sell it internally or wherever they have to go because it has become their their idea

Jake Stahl (: 34:20

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 34:20

So I think on the surface, sounds not manipulative because it's not. It's really just getting them to think through how it impacts. Right. So I think it's, um, yeah, exactly that the, the, the transfer piece, that's exactly what it is. You're taking what you do, how you can help them. They can imagine it and see what the outcome looks like by bringing you in. Then all of a sudden they're like, all right, the wheels spin. I get it. I see how this works. Cause if I can't connect those two dots.

Jake Stahl (: 34:23

No.

Brett Trainor (: 34:48

the ghosting is going to happen. Or they may just flat out say, this isn't going to be, it's just not right for me at this point in time. Right. So you hope that least they let you down easy, but you're right. The ghosting and the long sales process and, and just life processes, right. People aren't because of, they didn't see it from their eyes. They only saw it through your eyes.

Jake Stahl (: 34:55

Exactly.

Jake Stahl (: 35:08

Exactly right. And that leads to the buyer's remorse thing that leads to all of the regret and that leads to the returns. You know, it's easy to say, let's force somebody of buying it. Let's use this five yeses to get to that last yes. It'll buy it's nonsense. Transfer the idea. So it's there's the one thing I do caution about in the book is you need to check your ego at the door. So if somebody takes your idea and runs with it, resist the urge to go.

Brett Trainor (: 35:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 35:37

That was my idea. need credit for that. If they're running around telling people about your idea, that's the win. That's the win. So check your ego. Exactly. Yeah. So don't worry about whose idea it was. Just be glad somebody adopted it and is taking it as their own.

Brett Trainor (: 35:45

Yep. Easier said than done, but yeah, I think you're actually right.

Brett Trainor (: 35:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you a much better chance of success. Again, not just in sales, but just in life and whatever. So very good. All right, next one is my favorite word, action, right? You got to take action. Nothing bad happens when you take action. I shouldn't say that. if you just wait for things to happen, it's not going to. So explain to us action and how this relates in this process.

Jake Stahl (: 36:03

Yes. Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 36:09

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 36:21

Yeah, so everybody talks about doing a call to action and they say, let's make it easy or let's give them 30 options or let's do X, Y or Z. Action is the only piece of strata that should happen all by itself. If you read the signal, if you read the trigger, if you reframed them properly, if you anchored it and transferred it, action should happen all by itself.

I heavily emphasize in the book that you don't want to look for the yes. You want to create a space where yes is just inevitable. There's no other option but to have a And again, doing strata, this is in a row, this isn't getting them to say no first. I buy into those and that's great. But if you do the strata process, you don't have to worry about all that manipulative trickery.

Brett Trainor (: 37:00

Yeah. Well, even... Go ahead.

Jake Stahl (: 37:18

Nonsense.

Brett Trainor (: 37:18

Right. Just trying to get a sale. I mean, I 100 % agree. it's even thinking back to the transfer piece. If one, they can't ever grasp it from there. It may not be the right fit, right? There's just certain and that's okay, right? You don't have to waste time. You don't have to force things to your point. You maybe manipulate, force things to get it done. But at the end of the day, if you can't get the transfer to stick, then it's going to be, again, it may just not be the right fit for whatever.

Jake Stahl (: 37:30

Exactly. Yeah, it is okay.

Brett Trainor (: 37:47

you're doing. And it may not be you, it may not be them, just whatever it may be. So, so is it, are you kind of viewing that as the, I don't want to say go or no go, but if they get the transfer idea, then action is going to take care of itself, right? You just make sure you stay out of the way or help facilitate whatever action needs to take place next, right?

Jake Stahl (: 37:53

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 38:02

Correct.

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 38:09

Yeah, and I think the illusion of a communication process is that it's always going to be effective. It's just not. There's too many variables that could occur to say, this is going to work 100 % of the time. But if you do the process right, a majority of the time, action should just take care of itself. They should be proposing to you what comes next or asking the question, hey, Brett, that's an awesome idea. When do we meet again?

Brett Trainor (: 38:30

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 38:38

So get to that action spot. And the thing about Strata 2 is if the action doesn't go through, but you still know that probably somewhere they want it, take a step back. Maybe it didn't anchor properly. Maybe the transfer didn't take place and that's okay.

Brett Trainor (: 38:53

Yeah.

And it could be a timing, right? There's, we're finding that it just, I wasn't in the right head space for this. You know, I'm working with somebody now that I'm coaching that's, six months ago, he he understood about escape. He could see the future, but he was way too, I know, he's word anchored into what he was doing. But six months later, all of a he's like, I got it. And I get what you were telling me now. I, I'm building for this future that, that was there. But again, I, early on, I was trying to force everybody to

Jake Stahl (: 38:55

Of course, absolutely.

Jake Stahl (: 39:01

Yes.

Jake Stahl (: 39:12

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 39:17

Right?

Brett Trainor (: 39:24

see what the future of corporate and where people are going. But I've learned,

Jake Stahl (: 39:28

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 39:30

And again, just just repetition a lot of the time, but it's, it's, it's okay if they're not ready. I'm like, I'm here for you when you're ready. You'll see the light at some point. If you never do. That's fine. You, you're in a good path for yourself, but that was hard for me to understand. And again, all of this was not conscious, right? It would have, it would have made things easier as I went through the journey having, you know, because again, I'm sure for you, this is all just second nature. don't even think about these things anymore, but.

Jake Stahl (: 39:32

It is.

Jake Stahl (: 39:48

Yeah, yep.

Jake Stahl (: 40:00

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't think about it a lot. All I'm trying to do is bring light to what most of us are doing already. Because when people first looked at the strata concept, they're like, wow, that takes a long time and this is super complicated, but this takes place in seconds. In 15 seconds, you register the signal, you see a trigger, you think, my God, you reframe it. You're anchoring the moment, transfer your idea and action. That can be seconds.

Brett Trainor (: 40:00

Go ahead, sorry.

Brett Trainor (: 40:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 40:29

Yeah. And if you're lucky, you don't have to reframe it. You just get to anchor it because it went that direction. but I think this is going to save people a lot of time. Again, I'm more defaulting back to my sales world that the amount of time there's, there's one client I'd probably chase for three years. And if I were to just put it through this little bit of a filter, I would realize that I just, there was nothing, there was no way he was going to the transfer. It almost always comes back to the transfer.

Jake Stahl (: 40:31

Right? Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 40:56

Yeah, it does.

Brett Trainor (: 40:57

Cause we got through the triggers and everything else. And if the transfer doesn't take place, I think that's the, that's the key. I don't, one of the keys. I'm sure you've got some different thoughts on that, but just as I'm thinking through.

Jake Stahl (: 41:08

No, you're right. That's where kind of the magic takes place. If you've done everything right, the transfer is pretty simple and it's just getting them to adopt the idea as their own. And the thing that always tickles me about this is this is pretty easy to follow. In the book, I give you exercises to test out where you are and see what's going on. I give you a worksheet that you can use when you're in a conversation to just keep track of each.

And I give you daily exercises you can try and do for each of the letters to just become more conscious of each of those items. And if you follow those things, this is really simple. And again, once you see it, you'll never be able to unsee it. Your whole world is just gonna open up.

Brett Trainor (: 41:54

Yeah, it's so good. And I can't believe how quickly time is flying by Jake. So I do want to be respectful. I know. I know. know. So was there anything else that we didn't cover as part of this? I think this is going to be super helpful.

Jake Stahl (: 41:59

I know, it always happens with us, doesn't it?

Jake Stahl (: 42:08

No, there's just other examples in the book, how to handle a room. So it's how to handle a bunch of people in there. There's strata in the midst of chaos. So something explodes or the room goes wild. How you can handle that is a brief section on strata in relationships. And then there's the bonus chapter about my experience with a timeshare salesperson.

Brett Trainor (: 42:29

Bye.

And it's all good. And again, this is again, my favorite type of book is one that's actionable. it's personal. Obviously you share your story, but it's, it's, it's kind of that perfect mix. I don't need a 400 page book anymore, right? Cause I I'm going to pull it in and just pull the actionable stuff out. And if I wanted to read fiction somewhere down the road. like I said, I, people have listened to this podcast long enough, know that I don't, fluff up authors. If I don't like a book, we'll go through it. I'm sure there's key points we could pull, but I do.

Jake Stahl (: 42:47

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 42:58

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 43:00

anybody that's struggling with communication relationships, I highly encourage you to check this out because I again I'm I wouldn't say I was I wasn't I know you put out good work so I wasn't skeptical but I wasn't 100 % sure what I was gonna be reading and like but again I get the head nods I'm like damn this would have been helpful a long time ago but better late than never so and so alright so everywhere books are sold

Jake Stahl (: 43:08

Thank you.

Jake Stahl (: 43:16

Yeah.

Jake Stahl (: 43:20

You

Yeah, of course. And it's available.

Yeah, pretty much. It's available right now on Amazon with paperback, Kindle and hardcover. And if you go to a bookstore anywhere, it'll be available in their catalogs. I hope they bring it in physically, who knows, but you can get it out of their bookstore. It'll be available everywhere.

Brett Trainor (: 43:47

Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, thank you, Jake. And if folks want to connect with the author, what's the best way for them to do that? I'll make sure I put in the show notes as well.

Jake Stahl (: 43:51

You fit?

Jake Stahl (: 43:55

Yeah, they have a couple of avenues. They can find me on LinkedIn. There's a lot of Jake Stalls. I'm the only one that's the CEO of orchestrate. So please look there. If you want to catch me on social media, my handle is Jake, the mind mechanic. I have a, what's that?

Brett Trainor (: 44:03

There you go.

Brett Trainor (: 44:09

My, no, I was going to say follow them on TikTok too. I enjoy your TikToks as well. um,

Jake Stahl (: 44:13

Yeah, please. And I have a podcast called Own the Room with Jake Stahl that's available on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And you can certainly catch my newsletter Own the Room on LinkedIn that I put out once a week.

Brett Trainor (: 44:28

Highly recommend it. Jake, thank you so much for joining us. Just got to ask you, got another book in the works or are going to focus on your business here for a bit? awesome. Okay.

Jake Stahl (: 44:29

Thank you.

Jake Stahl (: 44:36

I do. I've already got one three chapters in. I'm doing one about the two profiles, the profile we show and the profile we don't and how to improve your inner profile. So the signals you put off, everything is gonna land you much better when you're ready to finally talk to them face to face.

Brett Trainor (: 44:54

All right, we'll have to have you come back well before then and talk about that book because I think it's important stuff. So anyway, thank you, Jake. Best of luck. Congrats on everything so far and yeah, continued success.

Jake Stahl (: 44:57

Thank you.

Jake Stahl (: 45:01

I appreciate that. Thanks for having me again, but.