Recalculating Life’s Path: Nina Sossamon-Pogue’s Blueprint for Building Your Next Chapter

Brett Trainor (: 00:02

Hi, Nina. Welcome to the Corporate Escapee Podcast. It is my pleasure. super excited about this one. It's not often we get a perfect blend of some of my favorite guests, the athlete, the author, the broadcaster. I don't want to spoil everything for everybody, but I'm super excited about this.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 00:05

Well, hi, Brett. Thanks for having me.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 00:23

good, I would push back on perfect, but a blend definitely.

Brett Trainor (: 00:26

And yes, again, that's what we're all trying to figure out here later in life. What does 2 .0 look like? But I thought to get started would be helpful for the audience just to hear a little bit about your journey, which like I kind of teased it is super fascinating. And then we can get into the core topics that we wanted to talk about today.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 00:33

You

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 00:42

Thanks.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 00:46

Yeah, well lot of times people talk about me or you or anybody along our resume line. So they talk about the things that we've achieved or our accomplishments. So yes, I was on the U .S. gymnastics team. I was a D1 athlete at LSU, was a gymnast there. I was very successful in television as a journalist and then as a news anchor and won an Emmy for best newscaster in the Southeast. And then I got, went from TV to tech and jumped in with a friend's SaaS startup. And then we took it public and had big success there.

So that's my resume, what I call above the line resume. But I really don't talk about that so much. I talk a lot about my struggles and my failures. So yes, I was on the US team, but then I didn't make the Olympics. After being on the cover of all the magazines and the Olympic Hopeful and traveling around the world with my USA sweats, I didn't make the Olympics the year of the Olympics. And I thought my life's over at the ripe old age of 16. And then, yeah, and then in college, I found my way and I became an athlete in college. And then my freshman year, I blew out my knee.

Brett Trainor (: 01:36

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 01:44

and I lost my sport altogether and didn't even know who I was without that sport. Back then it was like your bumper sticker or your sweatshirt. Now it's your Instagram, your everything, your TikTok and these kids really identify, but I had to figure out who I was without that and had to come up with a new plan to go forward and that's when I found journalism, loved television, but I also was let go one time.

From a very was a very popular news anchor big fish little pond popular But I had one Charleston's favorite news anchor seven years in a row on a Thursday And then on Friday, they called me in and let me go in the big budget corporate budget cuts You know, so I had to kind of find my way forward and I've also had some times when I really struggled with my own mental health And didn't think I could even go on I was tired of all the struggle in my late 30s So I like to share that part of it because people can just look at me and go

She's got it all figured out. Right. Yeah, just do that.

Brett Trainor (: 02:40

Yes, life's so easy. U .S. gymnastics doesn't work out, go to TV. TV doesn't work out. How hard could tech be, right?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 02:49

Yeah, just jump into that. I knew nothing about a SaaS platform. Let me tell you, that was a big jump for me. So yeah, so my background, yes, I have had many chapters of my life and I'm all about what is the next chapter going to look like. That's why I love your podcast so much. It's perfect for how my brain works. So I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

Brett Trainor (: 03:08

Yeah, and it's interesting because it wasn't until later that I got into the background of your bio, right? Because what really drew me to you was what you're talking about today, which is not just the mental side of it, but you call it what is the GPS of life and the caliber, not calibration line, else? You had a couple, yeah, recalculating this, we'll talk about this and some of the things. And so I thought it was kind of perfect as.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 03:25

recalculating.

Brett Trainor (: 03:35

I'm meeting more folks kind of like myself that, you know, for 30 years, 25 years in corporate, we're just getting to that box, right? This is what you do. You do the commute, you go home, you take care of your family, you bring home the paycheck. Then all of sudden, you know, I shared with you offline, I had my Forrest Gump moment, you know, like in the movie when he's running, running, running, and all of a sudden he just stops and everybody's following him. like, I'm tired, I'm going home. That's how I felt at the end of corporate. I wasn't chasing anything anymore. What was I running towards?

I had no idea where I was gonna go or what I was doing, because after 20 years of following, it was pivoting, right? It was following the GPS, but in the corporate, and you don't realize how tight that box is until you get out, right? And so that's what I was glad to have you on to come talk about this, because I know this is also what you're passionate about in helping people find that what's next.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 04:15

You don't.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 04:27

Yeah, and there's so much to it, but I do want to commend people who are in that space too. I think we need to give ourselves a little grace. One, we grew up at a time when that's what you did. Like today, I have three kids. They're all out working. They're adulting and working, and they switch jobs and jump to the next thing. And I keep thinking, it would make me so nervous to keep giving up this great gig you have for the next one. But they're in a different world than we are. But we did what was expected of us in some ways, but we also got

Brett Trainor (: 04:56

I think so.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 04:56

really good at what we did. There was something to that loyalty and being really good at what we did. So I want to give ourselves a little bit of grace for doing that. I think there's a little of that missing nowadays. But we did do it for a long time. No.

Brett Trainor (: 05:08

Exactly. And by the way, plus we didn't get the pension, Because again, that's a big piece that people forget that you could stay in a corporate job for 40 years because they were going to take care of you for the rest of time. There's no pensions now. as I say with lifespan, if you take care of yourself, you could live to 90. Are you going to be able to take many draws off a 401k that many people have and live? That's not the way I want to live. I'm like, whoa.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 05:20

Right.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 05:36

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 05:37

What do we do?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 05:38

And there's so much you can do. I had my biggest shift to what am I going to do when I left television for tech. So I was 40. I always joke that they went HD the year I turned 40. And I was like, OK, done. They're going to remember this all young and cute. I'm tapping out. That I got out for several reasons. But I got out and jumped into my buddy startup. But part of what I did there is I went through what I think a lot of your listeners are doing, going, am I good at?

Like I had been in television for close to 20 years at that point. And that was a long time to be doing that job and every day on air live. mean, that was the world I lived in and I didn't even know what corporate felt like. I had no idea what it felt like to sit in a corporate cube or be part of a big machine. I was out covering and doing in live. My world was very different. So I had to really think about, like, I didn't know how to do anything but what? Read a teleprompter?

Brett Trainor (: 06:07

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 06:37

know, tell stories, read a teleprompter, interview people. Those were my skills. What was I going to do with that in life? So that was the first time I think probably like some of your listeners are like, what do I do with these skills and what exactly am I good at? And I'll tell you what I did is I went and I asked people what I was good at. So as I decided to leave that space, I knew I wanted to get out of the TV space and not be front and center for a while. And so I talked to people that I admired and said, if you had to hire me tomorrow,

Brett Trainor (: 06:55

interest.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 07:06

What would you hire? You know me. What would you hire me for? And I thought for sure it was going to be marketing. They were going to think I was great at that. And I met with this guy who owned a huge marketing firm who I'd met through my television time. And he said, yeah, you could do like car commercials or you could do carpet commercials, but you don't have any marketing skills. You got nothing. I was like, thank you. Very brutal over coffee. I can still remember where I was sitting as he was dishing out this information, telling me how much I did not know about marketing.

Brett Trainor (: 07:26

Okay.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 07:35

And so that was one and then I had lunch with a woman who ran the Center for women who had a lot of career experience and global career experience and talked with her and she thought saw me very much in a political field and what my skills how my skills could transfer into that space and then I had my another interview with this friend who was having starting a startup and fortunate for me Google it just bought YouTube

And so when Google bought YouTube, a lot of the software companies were like, how can we incorporate video into our platforms? And so early on that became a journey. was healthcare software. So how do we explain a high deductible health plan? Well, it'd be real easy to stick a video in there, you all that kind of stuff. So that was the other space. And then there was a fourth one too. I had a friend who was an attorney, big international attorney. And he said, I would love you to come train all of our attorneys on how to deal with the media. And I thought,

Brett Trainor (: 08:04

Okay.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 08:32

I could do that. So I met with him and I sat down and looked at all of those things. And in each of these conversations, I said, what am I good at? And what it came to, I took a lot of notes, when I sat down with all these pieces of papers next to each other and I said, what am I good at? It was, I'm really good at communicating very difficult things. And I'm really good at helping other people to communicate those things.

So not just me, but in other situations, I can explain it to you well enough where you can explain it to somebody else, no matter how complicated it is. I could be covering brain surgery one day and a hot air balloon championship the next, and I can make it make sense to you. So that's what I realized I was good at, not at all how I saw myself.

Brett Trainor (: 09:02

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 09:13

Interesting. Yeah. And storytelling is so important. It's such a underappreciated, and I know it's more than just storytelling, but the ability to be able to do it is a loss. I don't know if it's a lost art, because I don't know if people are ever good at, but coming out of corporate, Even small businesses aren't very good. We all want to lead with features and benefits and the marketing piece, but we're not very good at telling the story or communicating that. So I think, yeah, you're in the absolute right space.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 09:20

But that's a big piece of it.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 09:39

Right. So stories are how you get clients, stories are how you hire people. Your story is what makes investors want to invest in you. It touches every piece of the business. So I realized, that's what I'm good at. And all of those things that led me to, you those conversations, asking people, you know, that what was my superpower? And I had to get down to what it was and that seemed to be it. And then I had a very fortunate moment where I was actually, was the news anchor. So I'm doing this big gala.

And I'm emceeing it and I'm up there in my gown and I'm auctioning off some G -clays and doing whatever it is they needed me to do at this big fundraiser. And a friend came up to me that I hadn't seen in ages. And he said, Hey, I hear you're talking to Sean about working for him. He's the one that had the software company. And I said, yeah. And he said, I would work for him for free, just for the options. And I nodded and smiled and went back to auctioning off my G -clays. I didn't even know what an option was.

Brett Trainor (: 10:34

Right. I'll come back to it.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 10:35

This is me, Nina TV. I didn't even know what one was. So another fortunate thing. So I sat down and went, I should do some homework about where all of these opportunities will go in the future, what the finances look like. And so one, I found out what options were. And two, I found out what does the legal field look like five years from now? What does software and healthcare look like five years from now? And obviously the money, if I follow just the money.

Brett Trainor (: 10:58

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 11:02

healthcare and software was where I was going to be able to make the most money. And like you and other people, I had kids to put through college. I was the breadwinner. I had, had a family to support. And so I went down that road and I also said, Hey, I know you can't really afford me, but I'll work for you for the options. Which turned out to be a really good play in the long run. Yes. Always be more interesting than I'm interested than interesting. So you definitely. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 11:18

Hahaha

So you're a good listener as well, as well as the communication skills.

Brett Trainor (: 11:30

curiosity is a superpower. I tell people that all the time. So all right, so now but then you write a book, right? If that wasn't enough. so how did you when did you start to think tech to book or were you do you do did that simultaneously right before you then exited?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 11:33

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 11:37

Right.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 11:48

Yeah, so interesting that we went there. I promise folks, we did not prep for this. We're just really giving you a lot of good information right in order here. But my second time I had to reset, I did another thing that I heard from somebody else and learned from them and made my own. I was 50, kids off to college, trying to figure out what to do next with my life. I'd been in a cubicle in corporate for about 12 years at the time. And I was searching and someone said, you know what you should do? You should sit down and look at your calendar.

for the last two months, it's all digital, like we all have our digital calendars now, they said print out your calendar and put it on a piece of paper, old school it with a piece of paper and then take colored pencils and circle the things in one color that you like, a circle of things in the other color that you don't like, look at every day and go this is what I like doing, this is what I don't like doing and then use a color and say this is where I feel like I'm making a difference and just make your own color chart up of what it looks like in your days and then step back and look at it.

Brett Trainor (: 12:22

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 12:46

And I did that. did it for, I was supposed to do two months. I think I actually did maybe six weeks or a month of it. And I put it all out in front of me and I can remember sitting on the floor and having it all spread out there. And I had used orange on the things that I, where I thought I added value, like to the world, not just to the company. And I looked at my calendar and it was when people had scheduled syncs on my calendar. You know how people do that in corporate, like a sync in this. So they would schedule a sync and I would.

Brett Trainor (: 12:52

you

Brett Trainor (: 13:11

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 13:14

show up in this little glass cube. And I had about 200 or so people that reported to me, close to 300 at one time. And sometimes it'd be someone who didn't even report to me and they'd be sitting across from me and I'd go, why are we here? You like this was your, you put this thing on my calendar and I don't even know who you are. But it was often someone who said, hey, I just heard you were really great at getting people through tough times. And I am struggling.

Brett Trainor (: 13:28

All

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 13:41

and I wanted to talk with you. could be a young kid whose wife was pregnant and he's having panic attacks coming over the bridges or a woman once who had lost her husband and said, I just don't even want to go on. a lot of times my first thought was always, wait, I'm not in HR. Should I be having this conversation? But I knew that I was helping. I was telling them things, sharing concepts and ideas and books I've read and things that I had gotten used in my own life's journey when things had gone horribly wrong.

Brett Trainor (: 13:56

Right.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 14:10

And I was sharing that with them and they, it was helping. And the word was getting out that I was good at that. went, you'll appreciate this Brett, I had a guy knock on my door and I opened it. It was a neighbor and he had two beers in his hands and two Coronas. He knew I liked Corona, he two Coronas in his hands and he had tears running down his face. And he goes, Nina, I just lost my job and I don't know how to tell my wife. I don't know to tell my kids. I don't know what to do. And I was like, I got you. And we walked through the house and.

We sat on the end of my dock and we worked through a lot of things and then he was fine. But it was, I knew when I circled those things and the moments like that, I knew I had something to offer that was different than what I was doing. So that's when I decided I want to put together whatever that is into something that I can offer to more people. And that's when I started my journey to write a book. And so I pulled off the band. I started writing the book, was at it for about six months, really loved the research and the writing and that piece of it.

Brett Trainor (: 14:54

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 15:06

and pulled off the band aid and quit my corporate job and went all in to do that and speak and be in this space. And I didn't even know it was resilience at the time. I didn't even know what word I was kind of come up with. Yeah. But that's where that research led me. And that was that journey. It was scary though. Let me tell you, you're listening, it was scary to step away from that bi -week, you know, bi -monthly paycheck and the 401k and all this stuff. It was a scary step away.

Brett Trainor (: 15:17

searching for.

Brett Trainor (: 15:28

of percentage.

I think we all get to that point where it's scary, but you're like necessary at this point. At least all the folks that I've worked with now that have made that escape. It's funny, I just was talking to, it's somebody that's on the podcast recently and hasn't aired yet, I just talked, cause she left corporate about nine years ago. So joked, those are the OGs of the folks that have made the jump. And I'm like, well, again, I always ask cause it's never like unicorns and rainbows, right? You've got the...

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 15:52

you

Brett Trainor (: 16:01

bumpy path and so she shared with them like, well, would you go back? She's like, I'd rather be homeless than go back into corporate. So that's kind of the universal message of once you get out, it's you don't want to go back, but it can be scary. Absolutely. can be.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 16:17

Yeah, and I've had some opportunities to go back and I did some consulting, you know, I helped put together decks for people going through rounds of funding and stuff. And I love jumping in on a project, but I don't want to be part of that machine anymore. However, I think the machine has a space and I love it. I actually want my kids to be in that space for a little while before they step out and try to do their own thing. You learn so much. It's a wonderful place to learn. To start learning without that, I think would be very difficult to learn how to run a company.

So it has its place, but I do think that many of us get to a point and not that it's financial freedom, but we get to a point in our lives where maybe the kids are in college or they're doing the thing and you just look at life a little differently and you go, yeah, right. so you, and it's financial, I mean, it's financial freedom and just freedom from you, you get in your fifties and you go, I get one life. What am I going to, like, am I doing all the things I want to do? And you do a reset. think corporate had its place.

Brett Trainor (: 16:57

Time's more important than that money, right?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 17:12

And I'm really glad I moved out of it and moved forward. But no, I'm just like the other folks. I would not go back, not for anything.

Brett Trainor (: 17:19

Yeah, no, it's funny. Jesse Itzler, I don't know if you're an entrepreneur, but he's done a bunch of different things. And one of my favorite things he talks about is he's a couple of years younger than me. And he's like, you know, average male lives to be 77. That means I've got 23 summers left on this planet. And am I doing the things that I want to do in those 23 years? mean, some people hate to think about that, but I mean, it's so true. It's just we've gone through the motions forever.

Right. And now all of a sudden we've got this green field in front of us to relook and rethink and recalibrate. And part of the challenge I see people leave when they leave corporate is they still, they're still in the box of corporate the way they're thinking about everything. Right. Not what you had talked about. What am I good at? What do I want to do? Where can I help? What's, you know, kind of the passion of this. it's like I said, it can be scary, but once you get out, it's so, I don't know, liberating or exhilarating. I don't know the

refreshing. There's probably a lot of different adjectives you can use.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 18:15

Yeah, I think my brain just felt different. do think it took me a long time to get comfortable with not being in the nine to five and having a number and somebody checking on me and knowing my KPIs or whatever it was I was chasing. Like it was I so indoctrined into it. It took a while to undo that stress that was part of my being. But I do think that there's this concept. Okay, here I'll give you my lifetime timeline concept that I think is so fascinating. And so.

because you know my whole story now, there's a way in which time feels different as we age. right. So first, remember summertime when you were 10? We talked about that a little bit before the show. Summertime when you were 10, when we were kids, like it was riding bikes in the street. It's drinking out of the hose, all the stuff they make fun of us for, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like we had a crick. And, or putting pennies on the railroad tracks, all the things we did as kids. So that was, but summer seemed like this long stretch of time, right?

Brett Trainor (: 18:58

Okay. Playing down by the crick or if you had a crick or whatever.

Brett Trainor (: 19:07

Okay.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 19:12

When you got out of school and then you went back such a magical long stretch of time to go ride bikes and do whatever play kickball in the street and That's when you're 10 and now think about summertime when you're And how fast it goes by like I'm a mom I remember summertime was scheduled and soccer and actually not soccer I had baseball and basketball and dance and like it was all that and camps and all the things that had to happen and then later it was how do get ready for colleges and what are we doing all the right prep I mean so fast

So summertime when 40 feels really fast for all of us. So when you're 10 years old, that year of your life is one -tenth of everything you know in life. If you have a pie, one -tenth of that piece of pie, that year of your life is one -tenth of everything you know. And when you're 50, or say 40, like that, 40, that's one -fortieth of a piece of pie. So it's a little sliver of pie if it was 40 pieces. But it's the same 365 days. Every day is a smaller part of the

Brett Trainor (: 19:52

That's a good point, yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 20:04

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 20:10

Every day is a smaller part of the whole. So this concept of life feels like it's moving faster. is, because the days seem shorter because they're a smaller part of the whole of your life. So when I lost my sport, when I blew out my knee at 19 at LSU and thought my life was over, like so many young people do when they lose their sport or something bad happens or when my daughter would get dumped by some boy, my life's over. Yes. That year, you know, at 19,

Brett Trainor (: 20:30

Yeah, it's over.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 20:36

Gymnastics at the time, I'd been a gymnast since I was four, that was 75 % of what I knew in life. So of course it felt like my life was over. By the time I was 50, and had already been incorporated in TV and parented kids for a bunch of years, gymnastics was 28 % of my life. And if I lived to be 100, which I need to drink less wine and take better care of myself, but if I lived to be 100, it'll be about 15%, you know. So it's just the way things feel when they happen to us.

Brett Trainor (: 20:42

It's gonna be hard. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 20:57

You

Brett Trainor (: 21:03

with it.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 21:06

give them a level of importance or a level of weight in our overall picture of our lives. And I always say, you know, draw your timeline, do a little math and figure out where it all fits in. And all of us can draw a timeline from zero, know, take a piece of paper horizontally and from zero to 100 with 10 ticks across it and put a dot on where we are right now. And what I love about that image is you can kind of put everything that led up to this on one side, your resume above the line.

and then all the stuff you got through, your reverse resume, I call it down below the line, the stuff that really made you who you are. That's the reverse resume. And then you're on this dot, and the most magical thing about that visual is all the blank space ahead. It's all yours to do whatever you want with. And if you want to step out of corporate, you can decide what, you have more control over what goes into those pages.

Brett Trainor (: 21:50

Here you can redefine it. It's such a good point.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 21:59

than anybody else, not your spouse, not who's the president, not your kids. I mean, you decide what goes into those pages. that blank space ahead. So I love that concept. And as I think about what you're talking about here, I think that's super helpful. The other thing you said was, does that make sense to you, that whole visual? Yeah? Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 22:20

yeah, no absolutely. And I was gonna add one thing to that to make you feel better, because I was actually talking to my wife the other day about this, that again, take care of ourselves, drink less wine, eat a little healthier. We can live to 85, right? Medicine's going, there's a good chance. That's 30 years. So if you think 30 years back, we were in our 20s. So that seems like a long time ago, but that means that that's how much time we have going forward to, I'm not to say,

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 22:29

you

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 22:42

I know.

Brett Trainor (: 22:47

not do anything about it, we still have a chance to do a lot of different things at this point in time. So, it's just how you frame it, I guess, right?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 22:52

Yeah.

Right. I truly believe the next chapter could be the best chapter. We just don't know yet unless you start thinking about it. I love that someone once asked me, it's how I ended up doing what I'm doing now and speaking and going down this road. said, what do you want the future to look like? Do you want to be in an office? Do you want to be in a home office? Do you want to be around a bunch of people or no people? When you look out the window wherever you are, are there trees? Is there a beach? Is there a city? What do you want your life to look like? And then go start doing things to make that real.

You know, it's just that whole idea of if you don't really know what you want, then you'll never get there. And I did a lot of work around that. You know, I knew I wanted to have, I didn't, I had managed a lot of people. like, I'm kind of done peopling. I don't want to manage a lot of people. I want to help in a meaningful way, but yeah, I didn't want to, I was finished with the day -to -day stress of a big team, you know. So you just figure it out.

Brett Trainor (: 23:45

Yeah. And I think you made such a good point because it's one thing that I didn't appreciate for a couple of years until I was out. What is, what do I want? Right. Because we really built our life around the corporate jobs. Cause you said, it's just what we did. It's just the way it was, the way it worked. But, know, vacations were scheduled around work, everything you hoped to get to the, you know, cheer or soccer games or whatever it was around work. Now all of a sudden you can reprogram that. Right. And it's just a whole different.

approach. so actually going through an exercise of what do really want? Where do you want to work? Who do you want to work with? Do you need money? How much money do you need? You want to do it on a beach? You want to do it, you know, in a lake house? Where or what is that ideal life look like? And then you can figure out how to make some money to to help you get there. And the first look I get from folks is like, No, that's not the way it works. Like it is the way it works. If you want it to, I mean, it's just so

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 24:37

It is.

These people who are doing it sat down and did that, folks. They didn't just magically end up in a space that they liked doing something they liked. They took the time, got really quiet, and it took me months to figure it out. You're not going to figure out in a few days. Months to figure out what that was going to look like and what that was going to feel like. And then some trial and error. My first few years at this, granted we had the pandemic and some other things after I stepped out of corporate, but it took me a few years of this to realize I am really hard to work by myself. I'm really not great at working by myself.

Brett Trainor (: 24:43

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 24:58

in the future.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 25:10

I need to at least have some people and some accountability and some teams because I can get busy doing stuff for my kids or going to the gym for too long. I can spend hours in the gym. I love going to the gym. It's my happy place. I can spend, you know, like I got into distance cycling. I'm like, okay, I'm way too much time and buying too many bicycles. So I had to go, what am I good at? You know, the icky guy. I'm sure you've had that and you share that with folks. What am I good at? Where's there a market for it? What are my skills, my passions?

Brett Trainor (: 25:20

Yes.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 25:38

If a piece is missing, then it's a hobby, it's not a job, that whole thing. Yeah, so I did the whole achy guy thing, but for me, I just didn't realize I'm not as disciplined as I am as an athlete and as responsible as I am as a parent and all. There is something about not having to make a bunch of money right now. I wanna make some and go down this road, but I did not have the discipline to work a nine to five -ish in my office.

Brett Trainor (: 25:41

good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 26:06

And then I thought, well, should I do it part time? I tried making it full time and then I was, you know, not being, I was doing other stuff in my office. And then I tried making it part time for a little while. I thought I'm going to be in the office from nine to 11 these days and then check in in the evenings. I had to figure out what was going to work for me. And then just recently I brought on a project manager and she is in the office with me at 9 AM each day. And it just changed my world. She brings, she's young. She brings energy.

Brett Trainor (: 26:11

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 26:35

She's excited. She knows tech better than I know tech, even though I worked in software. She can pull up a bunch of stuff and fix all my calendars so they all talk to each other, all the stuff that makes me crazy. Right. So anyway, it took me a while to figure out that that's what I needed. So don't think you're going to jump out. It's going to be easy at the beginning. I needed someone to help me. I mean, I'd done a P &L with a big company, but to do my own P &L and figure out where that went and how to do taxes around it and stuff, I just needed to ask people.

Brett Trainor (: 26:44

good stuff.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 27:04

You don't go it alone if you're going to do this, don't go it alone. But, but unless you imagine it, unless you think about what, what do I want? You will never get there. Cause you don't know what you, you're not magically just going to get something that you don't know that you want. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 27:06

and 100%.

Brett Trainor (: 27:20

Yeah, no, it's such a good point because again, probably within the first 20 minutes of meeting somebody new that's still in corporate or thinking about it, I get a good sense of will they or won't they? Right? And you like frameworks. I came up with a really easy one to think about if you're in corporate and it's bam. It's like belief, action, momentum. One, if you don't believe that you can do this or do something, you're not going to do it because I mean, as an athlete, I'm sure you visualized all that type of stuff, but

If you don't believe it, it's just, it's really hard to overcome that, right? And then action is the number of people that talk about things in corporate. talk about things all the time and build and overanalyze. I'm like, just take action, go do it. There's no rules. And this, this engagement doesn't work the way you want. You get to do another where you can go pick somebody else and then momentum just build off the little wins, right? It's celebrate the little things and

You know, going back to what you said, don't do this alone. For the first two years I did, I didn't really tell anybody that I went solo and was doing this. And it was in hindsight, it was awful in the sense I'm like, what was I thinking? Cause it's not like I was in corporate doing a side hustle. This literally was what I was doing, but yet I didn't tell anybody now, right? With the community, talked a little bit. There's, you know, I've got 900 of my closest friends in here, but it just, just in the last six months has made such a difference having a network of people that are in various summer, you know, like I said,

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 28:22

Mm -hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 28:43

nine years, few years ahead, and some that are just behind that we're all kind of moving in this direction and figuring it out. But yet we don't have to do it alone. We've got somebody now we can talk to or bounce ideas off of or just vent. Not every day is a good day.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 28:58

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And I do love a framework and that's, so I did a lot of work around resilience and my framework is called, it's this, whatever this big thing is that you're dealing with, let me help you figure out how to get past it. And I've had some trauma and things too. it's a mix of science, like neuroscience and behavioral science and stoicism and my own mashup of all of that. But part of it is the don't go it alone. So it's minus tips, T -I -P -S.

Brett Trainor (: 29:12

Yes.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 29:27

The T is timeline, that timeline piece I just did with you and all the blank space ahead. That brings down that whatever big thing you're dealing with, once you can shrink it down and put it on a timeline of your big messy marvelous life, like it doesn't seem so big. It fits in somewhere. That's the timeline. And then the I is isolate. I'm big into, so if you draw that timeline, draw lines on both sides of it. And if you're spending all your time on the before it, the woulda, shoulda, coulda is that side over there.

Brett Trainor (: 29:40

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 29:54

Any good therapist will tell you if you're spending time in the past that's where where depression lives over on that side So you draw these lines and don't spend too much time there and then on the other side of that line the what -ifs and the doomsday scenarios If you're spending too much time over there, that's where anxiety lives So any any good therapist will say depressions in the past anxieties in the future So I say, you know isolate it draw the lines there and then what exactly are you dealing with? You know, let's take the emotion out of it. Let's what what do you have to work with? What are you dealing with right now?

Brett Trainor (: 30:00

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 30:23

That's the I part and then the P tips and the P part is people and exactly what you said Don't go it alone somebody's been in this before someone sees it differently than you and I always tell people to take out a piece of paper and Draw a line down them, know this way down the middle of it and list your people and who's helping and who's hurting when you go through something or if you're trying to make a change There's people who are helping and there's people who are hurting and there could be very well -meaning people who are not helping But and then you got to figure out who's missing and is it?

therapist or is it a career coach or is it a mentor, someone who's done what you want to do before and pull those people into your world. And then the S -piece is story and that's just the language, like the words in your head that come out of your mouth that become your reality. you know, be careful about overgeneralizing that always all that self -sabotage language, like it's always happens to me or catastrophizing, this is never going to work. So, so those are those are my tips, T -I -P -S, and I think that

Brett Trainor (: 31:11

Yeah, self -sense.

Brett Trainor (: 31:20

I like it.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 31:20

when we can take anything that we're dealing with and run it through that framework, then we can see a path forward in a very different way. And we can see which piece of that is missing where we're off kilter.

Brett Trainor (: 31:31

Yeah, yeah. It's so good. think too, as we get in a lot of the folks I talked to in the early stages, right, they're still stuck in corporate, right? didn't, again, back, don't necessarily didn't know what was possible outside of corporate. All they've known is corporate or if I leave, then I got to start like a real company, like a software company or open a cafe. I'm like, no, you can, there's solo businesses. So I think, how do you,

get folks or what's your advice for folks that are sitting there on the fence thinking about the future. It's really not resilient yet, but it's you start to open yourself up to what's possible. Right. Cause I don't like to play the doomsday car and say, don't you just do this? You're cause I do tell people you do have an expiration date incorporated. At some point, somebody's not going to hire you again in corporate. It's just the reality of it. So even if you don't take it, somebody's going to

they're gonna do it for you, but I'd rather hear your approach to say, hey, how do I get more proactive with this and take control versus being reactive?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 32:33

You know what, I've worked with a few folks, this isn't my expertise in this space. I'm usually people who've gone through a big trauma or have gotten fired. I do work with a lot of people who've been fired and that's a big piece of it. And I have a whole chapter in my book on things to do and not to do when you get fired in my first book. But I think a big part of success, if you're wondering when to get out and how do I get out and how do I move forward, I'm big and take control of your own life. So get out before they let you go.

Brett Trainor (: 32:39

Okay.

Brett Trainor (: 32:43

is huge.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 33:01

I did at one point try to get fired because I wanted to take my options with me and I was like begging for them to fire me but that didn't work. I finally had to like turn in a resignation. I was like, please, please. I even screwed up a few times. Not anything that would hurt anybody or a client. But I was like, look how screwed up that is. I would fire me. And he just looked at me and I'm not firing you, I see you. was like, I'm not firing you. It's not going to happen.

Brett Trainor (: 33:17

Yeah, you're gonna do better than that

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 33:25

Anyway, but when you decide you do want to get out, you take control of the situation. And the one way in which you take control of your life is you have to do some skill stacking. I don't know if you've had other people on your podcast who've talked about skill stacking, but it's not just the resume piece. Here's all your stuff that you see on LinkedIn. Like those are your skills and your software that you've used, obviously, and any certifications, all of that's in there, obviously. But also with your skill stacking, you know, have you been a

parent who's navigated things? Have you, you know, maybe parented a child with a disability? Have you lived through a certain, you know, era of time in your community where things changed? Have you been a part of something else outside of your work? What skills do you have? Are you really good at helping people? Like maybe you do something in your church or in your community that's nothing to do with your work. Maybe you're really good at that. And, and, or maybe there's some artistic skills that you have or some communication skills that you have.

Brett Trainor (: 34:03

you

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 34:23

It's bigger than just your resume. So I say, do your skill stacking. And I always include in that, how old are you? Where would you grow up? And think about your life in a more striated way so you can say, this is who I am, not just who I am, what I'm doing. It's who are you being? Not just what do you do for a living, but who are you being for a living? And it will help you. Just thinking about the being concept seems to help people go,

Brett Trainor (: 34:43

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 34:53

I actually had these skills. I've never thought of them as skills. It's just a thing I do on the side. I've always, you know, helped out with, you know, my community this way, or I've always taken my kids team and I've always done all the logistics and all this stuff for that. don't consider that a skill. That's just something I've done on the side. And I actually really love the logistics part of doing a whole season of sports and figuring out where everybody's going to be. I mean, you've done other things outside of your business that you may, or travel that you've done.

that may tell you more about yourself than just this. And I do think, I mean, it's scary stepping away. I will argue there's some people that may not be able to step away. I think there's some people who are so indoctrinated, they just don't know how to take care of themselves. But that goes to your believing piece. You have to believe that you can do it before you step away. And believing in yourself is the first part of wanting to step away. Because if you don't believe you're gonna, you

Brett Trainor (: 35:42

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 35:50

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 35:52

If you believe you'll, you will, you will. If you believe you won't, you won't. That's what they say. So, yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 35:57

I think it's a hundred percent right. And I don't know if you remember the movie Shawshank Redemption, but I did, I think I wrote a blog post or maybe I can remember, but comparing corporate to Shawshank. And if you remember the characters, Andy, right, was the, he shouldn't have been in corporate, but he had the plan to get out and he had a plan once he was out. Red, who was the lifer, didn't believe he could get out until Andy showed him the path and he started to believe that he could see himself. But then I forget the other life.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 36:02

Yes.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 36:25

Yeah, it gets dark there.

Brett Trainor (: 36:27

Yeah, but he was the lifer. He got freed. He didn't think he could make it on the outside. And guess what he didn't, right? So I hate to use, but it's eerie how similar those two paths are. Yeah, I know. I always go to the beach scene at the end to bring it back up when Andy and Red meet after they're both out. So you talked about when...

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 36:33

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 36:39

Yeah, a little dark analogy there, but I like it. does make perfect. No, it makes perfect sense. I like it, Brett. It's a good one. There you go. That's a good one.

Brett Trainor (: 36:55

people are let go from their job, right? Again, no fault. And if you've been in corporate while, it's probably happened more than once. If it hasn't, then it's crazy. But I would love for you to kind of talk through, because a good portion of this audience may be sitting in that right now, hey, I was let go. It's been six months since I've been looking for a new job. And so even unlike the folks that are still in corporate pondering what's next, they still have a paycheck, right? They've got time a little bit on their side. What would your advice be to the folks that are

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 37:19

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 37:24

unemployed but searching for a job. How do you get your mindset?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 37:29

think a big piece of mindset is the S piece in my framework is the words in your head come out of your mouth and that becomes your story. Your thoughts become your reality you're living in. So one of the things I always, and I've had two male friends of mine our age, Brett, who have been let go, who have called me and like I've had to talk them off a ledge because they are angry and they're like so and so still there and they got this, you know, they don't even know what they're doing. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can say this to me.

You can say you're angry and so -and -so didn't know what they're doing and I can't believe they kept this guy and they didn't even make their number last year. This person, do they even remember what happened? I said, you can say that to me, but you don't say this outside of this box. Find one person you can say all that stuff to, but outside of that box, because you need to be angry. Your feelings are valid, but outside of that box, you don't want to be that guy. You want to be, okay, so picture this. You're in the office after somebody gets fired, somebody, and then they call, okay?

Brett Trainor (: 38:16

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 38:28

The guy fired calls and he's like, hey, well, yeah, I got let go and good luck without me and can't believe so -and -so is still there. And then they just vent and then they hang up. And then the people in the office are like, whoa, how's he doing? How's he taking it? And they're like, not good. He is ticked and whatever. Other language likely comes up, but I'm editing. And then the same phone call, okay, the guy gets let go and he calls in and they're like, hey, how you doing? He's like, well, I didn't see that coming. And you know.

Brett Trainor (: 38:45

Right.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 38:55

I've got to find something. hey, if you know anybody who's looking, you know, I'll figure, you know, I'm talented. And if you know anybody who's looking, please put the word out that I need to find something because I got to get a paycheck. Then, then he hangs up the phone and they're like, how's he doing? He's doing okay. He didn't see it coming. He's really, he needs to find something. Anybody know of anybody? That's the same scenario. Like the same person got fired. Your words become your reality and those people are going to help you find something. So if every day you're still

angry and spouting anger. No one wants to hire that person. Much less, you know, hang out and be friends with them and help them find something. No one wants to be around that. And it's just human nature. And so your language becomes your reality. And people, if you've been stuck in it for a long time, you got to really think about your language. You're having a challenging time. This is a tough chapter in your life. No, you didn't see this coming. And yes, you're a hard worker. You worked your ass off at whatever you were doing.

Brett Trainor (: 39:33

Yes.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 39:49

So the language you say, you can say, I worked my ass off and I didn't see this coming. I need something. The language needs to be different. And I have found just changing that language can change your world. It'll change how you feel about yourself. It'll change how people feel about you. And you will find a job sooner.

Brett Trainor (: 40:09

Yeah, I love that. That may be the title of this episode when it goes live. mean, but it's so true when you think about it, you know, because I tell people all the time, one of the unintended benefits of going solo was, you know, I cut all the negativity out of my life as much as possible, right? Because in corporate, you don't choose who you work with and you really can't choose your customers or the projects. But in now you get to choose who you spend your time with. And if you avoid the negative and the pessimism and all that, I mean, I'm for reality. Don't get me wrong.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 40:13

you

Brett Trainor (: 40:39

But you gotta have people that are positive, right? Because it's just your language, what did you say? Your language becomes your reality. I love that.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 40:47

Yeah. Well, I'm telling you, these two guys, I can picture in my head, I'm not going to say their names because I don't want to them. But both of them, thanked me so many times over afterwards. And they're like, you know how many times I've told people that? wait, vent to me, but let's put it in a box and then write down your four sentences. I had them write down four sentences. And usually the sentence is something like, yes, I didn't see this coming.

I'm looking, can you help me find something? You know what a hard worker I am and I need, like I've still put my kids through college, put some things out into the universe, but they have told me multiple times that they've told other people, down your four sentences, no matter how mad you get or anything, go back to your four sentences over and over and over. And as a journalist, that's what you do. That's how you train someone to do journalism training. If it's a politician, so they don't get rattled, here are your four sentences. Doesn't matter what they ask you, you answer your four sentences. Same sort of thing when you get.

Brett Trainor (: 41:27

Yeah, that's good.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 41:40

Let go. Have someone you can vent with, but come up with your few things that you need people to know about you so you can get a job, and then just keep repeating them in each conversation that you have. And then you're known as that guy who's, yeah, he works hard and he's looking, and that's who you become known as. And so when an opportunity comes up, they're like, I know this guy, yeah, he was let go, but he's looking and he's smart and he works hard. That's the language. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 41:57

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 42:04

It changes it for sure. That's so good. And if you listen to this podcast where I love my movie references, so as you're talking about that, you remind me of the movie, Crazy Stupid Love with Ryan Gosling and Steve Carell. And the beginning of the movie after he gets dumped by his wife, it's like, yeah, this other guy slept with my wife. And Gosling eventually comes up to him and says, do you know how I know all this? Because that's all you do around here is mope around and tell that same sad, angry story until you get to change the perspective and change the language and...

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 42:13

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 42:33

Change is closed and change. Yeah, it's such a good reminder. I never even thought about that, but.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 42:39

It is 100 % how you're gonna find the next job. And I've told this to my children and to other people through the years and it just works. It's amazing how it works.

Brett Trainor (: 42:49

and first customers, right? If you change that concept, right? Even if you go from job to say, I've never sold. You're not really selling. It's the same. If you're looking for customers, it's kind of the same as you're looking for a job. You're just applying a different filter to it a little bit and you're problem solving. But instead of one company and one paycheck, you're doing it for a few companies and multiple paychecks. So I know it's oversimplified, but.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 43:08

Mm -hmm.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 43:12

used to tell my son when he played baseball, so he was a really good ballplayer and he ended up having Tommy John and not playing in college like his dad did, but he was a great ballplayer and I used to tell him when he was younger in high school years, because you know, high school kids are high school kids, I would say every time you step into that dugout, you're either giving energy or you're taking energy. You're pumping other people up and excited or they're having to pump you up and get you excited. And I said, take this into the world and...

Brett Trainor (: 43:27

right?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 43:41

When you step into a meeting room, if you step into a problem, whatever you step, you come home at night, you're either adding energy or taking energy. And you are, another way to think of it is you're a character in someone's story. So you're the main character in your story, absolutely. But in everybody else's story that you're hanging out with, your kids, your spouse, your boss, you're a character in their story. And what language would they use to describe you? What words would they use?

Brett Trainor (: 44:09

Interesting.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 44:10

to describe you as a character in the story of their life. And right? like, check yourself before you wreck yourself. I did a movie reference for you. That one was for you.

Brett Trainor (: 44:14

So good.

Brett Trainor (: 44:19

Hahaha

I love it. No, that's, so good. And I just love these little reminders of if you get into that head space and just, you know, think, pull yourself back out and right. How do you people want to remember your character in somebody else's story? That's so cool. And the energy I've I'm a hundred percent on board with that too. So.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 44:32

Yeah.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 44:42

Yeah, I spoke to a room, you'll like this because you've been in corporate, I spoke to a room of executives once. I was speaking at a big conference, thousands of people, and they said, we're doing an executive luncheon for just the CEOs and CFOs. And so it was probably about 50 people in the room of just CEO, CFOs. And they said, will you speak at the luncheon? And I did the piece of my keynote where I talk about you're a character in somebody else's story, know, kind of crisis management. But also I did this piece and I said, how would they describe you? How would the other people on your, you know, executive team describe you?

would your investors describe you? What's the words they would use? And you could just see all their faces going, crap, look me editing. crap, like yeah, that's like a whole other way to think about how you step into this space of what you work in every day. And then I stopped and I looked at a few of them, said, how would your wife describe you? Like who are you these days? Who are you being? Not just not what you're doing.

Brett Trainor (: 45:12

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 45:20

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (45:37.89)

So it's just a fun way, it's fun way to think about life. I have to check myself. I'm so far from perfect. I have to check myself often and realize I'm not being who I absolutely want to be. can certainly be a character that's not too lovely sometimes.

Brett Trainor (: 45:38

So.

Brett Trainor (: 45:52

Yeah, well, I think we're all there, but it's a good, it's a simple, but a powerful, I think framework to keep again mindset as we transition and do these different things. So that's awesome. Well, Nina, I want to be respectful of your time because this is flown by, is there anything we didn't cover? think the audience should hear? Cause I know you do have a workshop coming up that I do want to make sure people are aware of it. Any cons we missed.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 46:01

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 46:15

yeah. Well, here, I always like to leave with, so I have my workshops, the Now What Workshop, you'll find it nowwhatworkshop .com. It'll take you through anything you're going through. I'll get you to the other side of it. That's, that's what the, the workshop's all about. But I would like to leave just with the thought that I can't say enough in all the work that I do that, cause a lot of people listen to podcasts when they're in a tough spot, especially something like yours. It is okay to not be okay. It's just not okay to stay that way.

We all go through tough chapters in our life. Do not make it your whole damn book. It's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay that way, and it's up to you to find a way to move forward.

Brett Trainor (: 46:50

into it.

Brett Trainor (: 46:56

I love that. It's such good advice and a good positive way to end this. Cause you're right, it is just a chapter. It's not the entire story unless you let it be the story. So, well Nina, thank you so much for spending the time. Like I said, it's flown by. can't believe how fast it is. I may have to you come back for a part two at some point because there's such good advice for the audience. And I know a lot of us are, we're all around the same age and we're all in kind of different, but we're all trying to point that story right into the, in the right direction.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 47:26

Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to. I might have given you all my good nuggets of wisdom, but I'll try to come up with some new ones. But yeah, for...

Brett Trainor (: 47:29

Somehow I don't think so, because there's probably a bunch of stories. I'd still love to go back and at some point talk about the discipline and how that translates into the other thing. But no, I appreciate it. Like I said, the story is super fascinating and congrats on the story so far. Like I said, it's been interesting and definitely curious to see where, is there another book? You've got the podcast too, right?

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 47:53

Yeah, so my podcast is This Seriously Sucks, the right podcast when life goes seriously wrong. It's on hiatus right now, but I plan to bring it back in 2025. And my next book, we didn't really talk about it in this form, but I'll throw it out there as we're wrapping up. My next book is going to be Recalculating Route. And it's my framework, but it's like, know, when you're driving down the road, Brett, and traffic slows or you see the red lights up in front and you are in a road trip and...

all of sudden your GPS goes recalculating route and it takes you in a new route. So my concept is, it's like brainware you can download into your own brain with my tips for, with my, you know, the tips piece and some other concepts that I throw in there. It's like, wouldn't it be nice if a GPS got or somebody, like they know where you are and they know where you're headed and they just find you a new path to get there. So this is the same sort of thing for us internally when things happen in our life. We know where we are and we know where we're headed.

s the next book. And it'll be: 2025

Brett Trainor (: 48:59

Yeah, it's wild.

Brett Trainor (: 49:05

love that. All right, we'll definitely have you back on when that's out there because I love that idea. Like, way is telling you, hey, no, it's been saving three minutes. Like maybe. Yeah. Yeah, now you're 30 minutes from your destination. But yeah, that's awesome. And I'll put all of this in the show notes and links to the book. You get a lot of great content. You get some videos too. So folks, if you listen to this, please do go check out Nina's

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 49:12

Yeah.

I like mine with a little British accent so I can take the news a little better.

Brett Trainor (: 49:34

content and where's the best place for folks to reach out and connect with you if they want to learn more.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 49:40

You can always get me through LinkedIn. I think that's probably where a lot of your viewers are. You can always jump into my DMs on LinkedIn and send me a message. Or on Instagram, I do daily motivation on Instagram. It's a fun place to follow me. I think I'm hilarious. I post some funny things there too that you may not think are funny. sometimes, sometimes, yeah, I'm doing okay. There's some eye rolls, but you know, they keep me current. They do keep me current. Yeah, yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 49:55

But do your kids think you're funny? Probably not. Mine, no. Sometimes. Fair enough.

Brett Trainor (: 50:03

Yeah, that's okay. Exactly, isn't that the truth? Awesome.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 50:09

So yeah, follow me on Instagram or LinkedIn or on my website and I'm sure you have all the links there, but I certainly will respond if anybody reaches out.

Brett Trainor (: 50:17

Fantastic. Thanks again, Nina. We'll catch up with you soon.

Nina Sossamon-Pogue (: 50:19

Brett, thanks for having me on.