Testing Assumptions & Finding Freedom: Lessons from Joe Manganelli's Escape

Brett Trainor (: 00:01

Hey Joe, welcome back to the Corporate Escapee Podcast.

Joe Manganelli (: 00:05

Hey Brett, good to see you. Thanks for having me back.

Brett Trainor (: 00:08

No, my pleasure. And I should say it wasn't called the Corporate Escapee Podcast last time you were on. was February. I looked it up. February of 2022, we talked about what you were doing with Calculate as a startup business. But as life would have it, you're an escapee. And so I'm like, who better to come back and share his journey because you're on the 2 .0 version of that journey now. So.

Joe Manganelli (: 00:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 00:33

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 00:34

Before we go back in time, why don't you share with the audience just a little bit of what you're working on today. And then we're gonna backtrack a little bit because I think your journey is interesting and you had a common challenge that most of us faced before we exited. So we'll tease that a little bit. So why don't you share what you're working on today.

Joe Manganelli (: 00:49

For sure.

Yep, absolutely.

So I've stepped into the role as the chief revenue officer of Amalgam, which is a software for accounting firms that really increase their productivity and allow them to do more with the data that they're manipulating and using with their work. And you may remember, and we'll talk about it, I'm sure, a little bit more, my role as the founder and builder of Calculate. Amalgam was a software we had originally built internally for ourselves, made us a lot more productive, automated some of our work. We spun that out.

its own business and started selling that to other accounting firms. When I sold Calculate, looking for kind of what's next and just sort of a logical move to kind of move in from the services side into the software side. So that's where I'm spending my time these days and talking with a lot of really smart, capable accounting folks, which is exciting.

Brett Trainor (: 01:43

Awesome. Yeah, which you don't hear exciting and accounting too often, but I leave it to the finance folks for that one. I'm just kidding. But you know, it's interesting is literally the last guest that I had on the podcast, Ray McKenzie, he left corporate, started his own consulting firm, professional services, developed a software internally because they needed something to help with their workforce and productivity. And now he's spending probably, I don't know if he's equal time, but selling his software.

almost a dual path to what you're doing. So it's kind of interesting that that's, I don't know if it's just coincidence or maybe we're going to see a pattern emerging.

Joe Manganelli (: 02:19

Yep. Meow.

I think it's a super, super exciting space, just in general, but also more broadly, I think we hear a lot of folks talking about AI, and a lot of when they're talking about it, they don't necessarily know what they're talking about, but I think it brings them comfort to be talking about it. But that's not necessarily action on their side. And so what I think is really good is instances like this of being able to embrace whether it's an internal build or embracing other tools, because I do think it's going to be a matter of having to walk before you run. I don't think that when AI

AI arrives in whatever industries that folks are working in, you're necessarily going to be apt to adopt it and embrace it the way that you're going to need to. So I think this kind of walk before you run mentality can be really effective, regardless of what industry you're in as things continue to accelerate in terms of development.

Brett Trainor (: 03:11

Yeah, I think that makes sense and it's funny because maybe we talked about this last time with the B2B world and how slow they are to adopt to anything, right? Let alone AI. I mean, they're still trying to catch up on digital transformation, let alone leveraging AI.

Joe Manganelli (: 03:23

Yeah, right. And I sort of joke in my sort of process, you know, selling a software to accountants and you made your joke around the exciting bit. But I think it's also interesting, I'm trying to sell something to process driven people that slightly changes their process. you know, they tend to be a little bit cheap even when it's not their money. So, you know, I've got my work cut out for me here, but it's a really fun, both personal and professional challenge.

Brett Trainor (: 03:52

I think that's what a lot of us GenXers are looking for is the interesting right after decades in corporate. So good transition. Let's go back because we didn't talk about kind of the origin story last time. So you were in financial service at, you at Goldman for a while and then somewhere else before you started. So why don't you walk through kind of the tail end of your corporate career and what was the idea and or the tipping point that sent you to start to exit.

Joe Manganelli (: 04:09

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 04:21

Yeah. And I think my sort of broader story is a little bit more atypical. I actually went to school for engineering. I got an engineering degree out of school, found my way into finance and really got placed in sort of an internal finance accounting role at Goldman Sachs, mostly because there was another employee who had to go out on medical leave and they sort of pulled my resume out of a hat and I got placed there. So I guess I've gotten used to maybe applying skills that I didn't necessarily learn to start. so, yeah, so spent some time at Goldman and then moved over to

Pirello Weinberg Partners, which is a financial services business as well.

and really got to know kind of the finance, accounting kind of space. I used to joke if the CFO had a number on his desk, it usually came off of my computer. So got to know that space pretty well. But I realized like shortly after getting out of school that I wanted to be able to kind of start my own business or really apply myself in an entrepreneurial manner. And so, you know, worked for years, but really stayed in that corporate.

corporate realm, mostly because I had a handful of ideas that I tried to apply, but I sort of joke, I never had an idea good enough or was like good enough for me to go and apply. Or I felt that I needed some sort of like technical skill or I needed to teach myself to code or something like that. And so I think that kind of handcuffed me for years around it of not being able to kind of start something. And then what it ended up being is really, I realized I had it right in my hands. I had gotten really good at the sort of finance accounting stuff.

t. So I launched Calculate in: 2017

Brett Trainor (: 06:21

Yeah, so interesting too. So was your thought at the time, because it's funny you said I didn't have an idea good enough. It was good enough. just weren't, you didn't have that confidence level that it was there, right?

Joe Manganelli (: 06:34

Well, yeah, I would say almost differently. The idea ended up with Calculate was a good enough idea. I think I was always just looking for something more complex or something that was much more a reach for me.

And so I didn't realize that like, I didn't need some like huge idea or some complex thing, right? Like it really just starts with their first couple clients or customers or something like that. And so many of us, especially the audience here, right? You've been working for a bit. You certainly have some skill skills that are valuable to others and not saying that this is necessarily, you know, your escape pod specifically, but for a lot of you, probably that, that skillset you've developed is something people are willing to pay for outside of sort of a straight corporate environment or corporate structure.

Brett Trainor (: 07:14

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. Because I think for the one that actually wrote on this the other day about that, you don't have to be Steve Jobs in order to escape corporate and start a solo business. And one of the things that I love about this podcast is talking to folks like you that have taken kind of different paths. So like Ray McKenzie started his own consulting firm. I just had Laney on and she started an email marketing consulting, Superniche when she left corporate nine years ago.

And so was your idea that, I want to build a company or are you thinking, hey, I'm going to take this solo and what was, was it, I guess, where was your mindset? What were you thinking at the time?

Joe Manganelli (: 07:53

Yeah.

You know, I think at the start, just like had that urge to kind of get out and do it myself. And, you know, a little bit of its ego in the sense of not that I had to prove something to other people, that I could kind of prove it to myself. Like I'd spent years really wanting to do my own thing. And I got to a point, I said, well, here's something that can work. Let me see if I can do it. And I sort of gave myself six months. I sort of said, hey, you know, after six months, I proved to myself I can do it, which is great. Or I proved to myself I can't do it. And that corporate role is over.

always going to be there for me. And at least I have that kind of understanding and perspective as part of that. So I think that was kind of the approach when I was like at the edge of the diving board, ready to go in. That's sort of, that's what enabled me to kind of take that step across.

Brett Trainor (: 08:41

Yeah, I like that idea because I've had different folks in here talk about different things that, it's really hard to do a side hustle while you're doing your job. Then I've had others, people tell me, well, it's really hard to do both. You're not putting enough effort into either. And I think it really, to your point, depends on the personality and what you're trying to do. But I think at the end of the day, if you get laid off in this environment, no time like the present to go down both paths, see if you can figure out how to go. But I like the idea of a six month. said, hey, I'm going to prove it to myself.

Joe Manganelli (: 09:04

great opportunity.

Brett Trainor (: 09:10

Because you're right at the time, I wasn't thinking that I needed to prove it to myself, but in hindsight, that's 100 % what it was. Can I do this outside of corporate now that I found the path or I thought I found a path and kind of been meandering and we'll get to your 2 .0 version of your journey here in a second. So no, I think that's a really good point. So folks, you're sitting out there and you're not confident. One, you do have the skills, especially if you've been working for 20 to 30 years, there's things that people would pay for.

Joe Manganelli (: 09:26

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 09:39

For sure. And I think there's also like, two parts of the mindset. I think there's one, the application or something that can like kind of generate money or whatever it is, like build revenue. I think the other side is the mindset of like what I would call kind of the false sense of security that a corporate role gives you, right? I went from having a corporate role at like a modestly sized company that was doing relatively well, but at any time I could lose my job, right? And I lose a hundred percent of my income, right?

Brett Trainor (: 09:39

Thank

Brett Trainor (: 10:04

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 10:04

six months into calculate, you I was just at myself or on the cusp of hiring a second person. I had

seven or eight clients at that time, right? I had a diversified revenue base. I was applying myself and sort of putting my successor failure on my shoulders, not someone in a glass office down the hall. So I think there's also that sort of element of that security. And I don't think it's necessarily the security of a salary and the security of benefits or something like that. But I think sometimes people have a little bit of an aversion for that kind of like accountability that comes with it too. And I was someone who really wanted that account.

accountability. Like I wanted the success or failure to be on my shoulders. I think sometimes for folks, it's a little bit of a transition to go from, hey, my risk is diversified in a large organization. If I make a mistake, you know, it kind of gets dissipated out, right? Versus if I do a bad job for one of those six clients, right, I lose a sixth of my revenue.

Brett Trainor (: 10:56

Right.

Joe Manganelli (: 11:01

So I think that's an element too for the audience to think about. And I would say from someone who's been on the other side, it's not as scary as you might think. You're working hard, you're doing all those things just as you've always done. It's just applying it in a new setting. And I think you know this, Brett, it can be really invigorating on the other side where you might be slogging through kind of what would be a safer or perceived safer kind of role versus the energy you get out of working for yourself and working on something that you're actually building versus maintaining for another business.

Brett Trainor (: 11:30

Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And it's kind of universal that energy that you get, right? It's, you know, I work, I work every day right now, but that's my choice to do that. And I'm happy to do it because I like what I'm doing and I'm working towards my goals, not somebody else's goals. And yeah, it's just, it's definitely worth the try. Now I like this six month window. Did you, let's go back to the first thing, cause get questions, the clients.

Joe Manganelli (: 11:46

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 11:55

Go.

Brett Trainor (: 11:57

So did you have some clients lined up before you left or was it, hey, all right, I'm out. I got six months. The clock starts now. Go. So how did you approach those first clients?

Joe Manganelli (: 12:07

Yeah, a bit more of the latter because I was working in banking. So I was working a pretty hefty job. I had tried to go to some events sort of in the evenings and get some cards and stuff like that. And I think, you know, those events aren't always the most effective. Like the people I wanted as my clients were working in their business at 8 p they weren't at some random free happy hour sort of thing. So those weren't super fruitful.

And so, yeah, so I ended up saying, hey, it was going to be tough to kind of do this as a side hustler, kind of ramp it up.

And then that's when I kind of came up with that six -month idea that, okay, just give myself six months and made the jump. And sort of over those six months, it went relatively well. I was able to sign a handful of clients, you know, not right away. And especially, I think one thing for folks who are just getting into it, especially a services business, like the first six months are sort of the worst. You feel the worst about yourself from a new business standpoint, but awareness is such a big thing. And the best thing that you can do in that kind of beginning period is

go out and just tell tell as many people about yourself and what you're doing and and that awareness is Ultimately comes around to the second six months all of a sudden I'm doing deals and I had I went from you know at six months I was just me by 12 months. I had three other people working with me so it can turn around pretty quickly

Brett Trainor (: 13:29

Yeah, no, I love that. And curious when you started, you, what was the service that we, when you, before you exit and you're like, I've got this idea. I'm going to do the, these financial services, obviously I'm assuming based on the name of the business and where your background was. So when you launched that, was it fairly consistent? Did you raise prices over time? What did you find when you first started taking it to market? And the reason I ask is that a lot of folks, you know, that I work with, get

don't want to say hung up, but it's hard to think through. It's got to be perfect, right? The offer's got to be perfect. I need the website. I need all these things. When the fact is you really don't, but I'd love to hear from you, how you, again, those first six months are so important to get the momentum. What was kind of your thought process through that?

Joe Manganelli (: 14:15

Yeah. Yeah.

I would say to kind of what you alluded to, like the biggest thing you can know or learn during that time is like, perfection's the enemy of the good. Most people don't care. They don't care if your website's pixel perfect and those types of things. They mostly care, and I can speak more from the services side, software's products are a bit different, but at least services side where there's not a lot of like capital and sort of upstart time and expenses, it mostly matters of who the person that you are and can

they trust you? Can they work with you? Are you competent? Do you have the experience that they need that they need to buy from? so, yeah, so kind of failing fast, not worrying about things being perfect is really the best idea. And you forget when you're just getting into it. But for me, the market was millions of companies could be my client, right? So if I fall flat on the first three or five, like that's not a big deal. I'm going to meet more people and be able to refine it. So.

In the beginning, I just tried to take on whatever accounts I could, take on whatever work I could, partly for the revenue, but also so I can kind of test the model that I was testing out and be able to get some practice, get some feedback directly from clients. And to me, that's the best thing. Don't guess what your customers want. Ask them and they'll tell you. And I think that's the best thing. And if you can get paid a little bit while doing that sort of marketing exercise, you've already have a business.

Brett Trainor (: 15:42

Even better, yeah, such a point. Now did you get the early ones through networking or through your network or how did you approach that?

Joe Manganelli (: 15:50

Yeah, I don't think I had much of a network early on. think part of the business was sort of seeded by the idea of I had a

a firm that I had become close with or just had known a little bit and they were kind of looking for a COO or CFO to kind of bring on, but they just didn't have the work or cash to warrant a full -time hire. the model was, hey, I can do it for you one day a week and I can find four other people and that would be my business, right? So I was able to convert them as sort of my first client. wasn't a huge amount of revenue, but...

a little bit of success breeds success. And then you start referring to those in other conversations. And again, I think what folks don't realize is how sort of collaborative the space can be or just kind of smaller businesses. And if you're in a corporate setting, it's sort of awkward and weird and a little bit difficult to ask someone for an introduction or just ask for their time. It's very much the opposite in the small business space where everyone's just excited to be building things and they're excited to talk with folks. for you to ask for an introduction or

look on your LinkedIn for someone you want to talk to or anything like that. That sort of stuff is very much commonplace and almost encouraged, I'd say, versus the corporate environment.

Brett Trainor (: 17:04

Yeah, it's such a good, love that the collaborative it is because people are shocked because you're right, in corporate it's competition. Everybody's fighting for the same position, same promotion, those types of things. And it's cutthroat where I do find everybody, even two people in the same exact title in corporate can work together and help grow each other's business in the small business space because it's there. It's really just about.

Joe Manganelli (: 17:13

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 17:28

taking action and getting started. So you were almost fractional, I forgot you were almost fractional before fractional was a thing.

Joe Manganelli (: 17:34

Yeah, it's definitely, especially in accounting, it's a different space. mean, it hasn't been that long, right? Like we're just talking about just under eight years here. But I would say none of the large firms sort of had these fractional outsourced. A few of them did, but not a lot of them. And it certainly was a lot less mature in the accounting space. So yeah, so was a little bit on the front end of the curve. I don't think, I'm not here saying that I invented anything new or anything like that. Like it's an old business model.

But it's definitely seen a lot of growth in transition. And I benefited some of that too. I think there were certainly tailwinds in the space that I was able to capitalize on building the business too.

Brett Trainor (: 18:04

Right.

Brett Trainor (: 18:15

Yeah, no, I love it. And I think too, because that's one of the things I found through this journey is through consulting and then diffraction leadership and then just some biz dev or affiliate and then there's some advisory. Now the corporate escapee thing is completely different path, but you just kind of go where. So I'm curious because one of the things that I love is multiple revenue streams. And my guess is once, know, Calculate started to grow, it wasn't all just the part -time.

finance exec, right? He started off for more services, those types of things. Is that how that evolved or can maybe share a little bit about how that, that bit grew?

Joe Manganelli (: 18:46

Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And it's not as always like smooth. You try things out, but I'd say first is like kind of the core services, like the outsourced accounting finance realm. Yeah. I would say those were even broken up into a few kind of one was like the accountant controller on one side. We had the CFO sort of on one side, and then we also did the tax work. So sort of three, very complimentary. Some clients would buy all those from us. Some would just buy a portion of those. so having kind of complimentary services, we also did a bit of recruiting. So as our clients in the

Brett Trainor (: 18:55

Okay.

Joe Manganelli (: 19:20

fractional space would grow out of us, we would actually help him hire for a fee their work. We did a little bit of transactional, so &A, which is again sort of adjacent, so another stream. then sort of what I mentioned earlier about Amalgam is...

we started developing a software for our own benefit. It started working for us and we said, hey, we can sell this to other businesses. And so we started selling Amalgam as a software to other accounting firms. Now, you know, it's a little bit odd if you've got an accounting firm selling a software to other accounting firms, which kind of led for us to spin out the business to be its own thing. But you can understand kind of like, you just have these opportunities that are adjacent and you can take advantage of them.

Brett Trainor (: 20:04

Yeah. And again, that's what I advise people all the time when they're just getting started is focus on the problem you're solving, which you did for those, those customers. And you have different offerings or services that you could arrive. One day it could be simple, super simple services that you do on a monthly basis, all the way to fractional, all the way to the recruiting. You can start to plug that gap. It just opens up a bigger universe versus I'm only doing fractional, right? Or I'm only going to do this. just kind of meet the client where they're at. And if you've got it priced, it'll

you know, it'll provide that value and it can grow with you.

Joe Manganelli (: 20:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you also can look at like, you learn kind of what's a little bit more scalable versus what's not. And I think in our business, what we found is the accounting kind of controllership work was a bit more scalable than the kind of finance CFO work. And I think part of that's because the accounting stuff, you know, for lack of better phrasing can be a little bit more of a commodity. Like I need the books to be closed. I need the bills to be paid. I don't necessarily have to have a great personal connection with that person. Obviously I want to like them. They should be competent.

have to do a good job. When you get more of to kind of like the outsource CFO side of things, like personality matters, how well you get along. The clients are really letting you into kind of their inner circle. It's a bit more intimate. So they have to, you know, they have to like you, you have to get along, you have to have have that sort of alignment. And that just gets more difficult to scale a business like that. And so that's a thing, you know, to your point to think about.

your cash flow, where you're generating revenue, how complementary it can be, but also what's scalable, what's not, value versus growth, all of those kind of things we learn in university.

Brett Trainor (: 21:41

Yeah, makes sense. a good thing, the options there for you to take it as far as you want, right? Your case you wanted in scaled and built business. Others like, Hey, I'm good with three or four customers. I can work three days a week and you know, the time is mine. So it's kind of the beauty of it. And that's part of two, when we were catching up not too long ago, you had mentioned that, you know, I may be done with the big corporate thing. I'm looking at what am I going to do? I don't know if you mentioned solo, but kind of a transition. So,

Joe Manganelli (: 21:53

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 22:10

At what point is it just kind of walk us through what got you here today, right? So you sold the business, was it just an offer you couldn't refuse or were you at a point where like, Hey, I'm ready to do something else. What was, where was your mindset there?

Joe Manganelli (: 22:24

Yeah, so the business had gone well. We had grown it by the beginning of 2023 to 45 headcount, which is great. It's really solid business. But what I think I noticed over that time is that

Brett Trainor (: 22:32

That's huge. Yeah, that's awesome.

Joe Manganelli (: 22:37

It just a different skill set where I found value out of my work was a little bit different. I very much love the build. I love the early days of the company where you're kind of proving hypotheses is like, okay, here's an idea. Like does this work? And you're sort of proving working through it. And I think for better or worse, we had kind of gotten through a lot of the proving of hypotheses and it kind of became more of a scaling business. I was becoming a little bit more of an operator.

and looked critically at myself of like, hey, do I really have the skill sets that are appropriate here? Do I really want to do this? Am I getting value out of it? Do I have the same sort of energy? And the answers were kind of coming out as being no more frequently than yes. And in order to continue to grow the business, I also needed some help and so ran a bit of a process.

weighed out some different options and ultimately landed on a merger, a PE -backed merger that allowed me to sort of step aside from the business over time. And I felt like that was the most appropriate thing and sort of like the leadership that was needed for the company kind of going forward. And also, know, where I could maybe apply myself to sort of that earlier stage, more hypothesis kind of stage of businesses.

Brett Trainor (: 23:45

Yeah, no, I love that. And congrats on the sale, by the way. don't think I could congratulate on that. That's so cool. All right, so what now? You stepped, I know you're working on selling the software with this. So is this company yours, the software company, or are you again, kind of a partner? mean, say what you wanted. Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 23:49

Thanks.

Joe Manganelli (: 24:03

Yeah, yes, I'm a partner, part owner of it.

Yeah, So one of my partners in Calculate, his name's Ben, he really drove the development of it while it was in Calculate. When we spun the business out, he became the CEO. I retained a part ownership in it. And so now I've joined the company. I'm Ben's partner in there. And you can kind of roughly say like Ben's really focused on sort of the development of the product and that side. I'm a little bit more front of house in terms of new business, as well as managing the existing customers. It's been a really great product. Our largest customer is over 300 users. We have

had really any turnover in the product. think our biggest turnover was a company that went out of business. So it's been a really sticky, valuable product for folks. No one's really stepped into that front of house role. So really defining a sales process for it, what works, really defining the customer success element and making sure folks are supported and able to get the most out of the product.

Brett Trainor (: 24:59

That's awesome. So is this going to be the journey for a bit or are you working on something else now as well?

Joe Manganelli (: 25:04

Yeah, I mean, this is sort of like the focus on the day to day, I have, you know, I have other projects I'm kind of playing around with and what's really exciting is you kind of go on this journey.

super proud of being able to build a company next to it, but then it also opens up a bunch of other opportunities and new networks and things like that. So it's almost like post calculate, I've kind of opened up a little bit of a new network of people and a lot of other entrepreneurs who are, guess, similar to me is they like building and they can't really sit still. So being able to kind of get into new endeavors and things like that. So nothing too advanced right now, but as things kind of pick up, I don't really like sit, I don't really sit still on nights and

weekends and so I like to continue to tinker and work.

Brett Trainor (: 25:50

Exactly. And that's the beauty of the escapee life, right? You can, you choose the pace and the one. So, all right. So looking back at the journey, what are, is anything else you would have done differently? Obviously it's worked out pretty well, but you know, as I always like to go back and look for advice. So people just getting started, what are, what are some of the things that maybe you would have done differently when you're just getting started or, you've already given us some really good advice so far, but curious what else.

Joe Manganelli (: 26:13

Mm, yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 26:18

Yeah, you know what? don't know if I have too much I would do like, hey, this is my one big mistake or something I would change fundamentally. I think just leaning into some of those themes I mentioned, like...

You know hear the fail fast I wouldn't necessarily call it fail fast But I would say don't be afraid to test those assumptions that you have Asking customers or clients what they think rather than trying to guess is a way more effective So I would say if you're kind of sitting there, you've got an idea. You're ready to apply it You just don't feel like it's quite perfect. You don't feel like it is fully fleshed out like

Don't worry about that, like go for it. And I also in my role at Calculate worked with a couple hundred entrepreneurs over my time period. And the best quality I would have seen in them is that they didn't need 90 % of information to make a decision. They were making a decision on 60 % and they were making the decision sooner and they were able to kind of refine the path and those things. So if you're looking at kind of...

becoming that escapee, would say that's the biggest thing to lean into. Don't worry about things being perfect. Focus on being perfectly imperfect and really focus on getting a good process to apply and then refining that process. Typically, you get results out of that time. It's usually pretty effective.

Brett Trainor (: 27:39

Yeah, that's smart. And I love that saying too. The other one I like is get comfortable being uncomfortable. As soon as you can do that, right? Because corporate is very comfortable. We may not like the job and it gets it's boring or whatever it is, but it's comfortable.

Joe Manganelli (: 27:46

I say it all to you. I say that many? Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 27:53

Yeah. had that's great that you say that because I always used to tell my folks and just sort of generally like you let your discomfort guide you. Like if you feel comfortable, that means you're not pushing yourself hard enough. If you if you feel uncomfortable, like that's those are the things you should be running towards. Those are the problems you need to be fixing. and yeah, early manager at Goldman, we weren't he wasn't my manager anymore, but

We just got lunch together at one point and I remember telling him that the job was going pretty good. I was feeling pretty comfortable where I'm at. And he stopped me and he said, what are you talking about? Like you, you are not someone to be comfortable. Like you need to be growing more. And I think the sort of let your discomfort guide you as a really kind of rallying cry that I've always used with my team. Cause if you're getting comfortable, you're either not pushing yourself hard enough. You're not learning new things. You're not doing whatever. So maybe that's my sort of banner line for this in the group is if you're listening and you're kind of in.

position in your career where you're just feeling comfortable, like there's more out there for you and you should definitely look for it.

Brett Trainor (: 28:56

Yeah, it's such a good point. You made me think back to early in my career, because I've had this thought occasionally, because when you're just getting started, you are, why can't we do this? Why do we do that? Why do we do this? Everything was a lot of why's like, this is dumb. Why are we doing it this way? You question everything and want to push, but then, you know, two decades in, it's all of a sudden, you know, that it's not, I don't want to say the right thing, but you can see where the opportunities lie, but it's just not worth it anymore to push and think. so, so I think making that transition out of

Joe Manganelli (: 29:09

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 29:27

corporate into the escapee world. One of the biggest things is to, it's not the corporate world right to your point. Make mistakes, fail fast. It's okay. You mess up with one. There's 33 .6 million small businesses. There's more out there. But I think the mistake a lot of folks make is they try to

Joe Manganelli (: 29:36

Mm

Brett Trainor (: 29:45

take whatever they do in corporate and put it into a smaller box for small business, right? When the fact is there may be a better way or the needs that they have are different than what the way you were doing it. So try to, how do you unlock that early career you that was pushing and questioning and driving back into, you know, what you want to do in the small business space.

Joe Manganelli (: 30:06

Yeah.

I also think there's like a mindset that needs to be distinguished there too, in the sense of like that risk that we talked about earlier and like not doing things or the status quo is sort of like very much a mindset in corporate because of that risk aversion, right? So like if we make no decision as an organization, like I can't get in trouble for taking a risk, right? And that very much becomes the norm in a corporate role. And if you've been there for a while, you can almost have that default as well, not that you've necessarily absorbed it yourself.

But that you are used to being around that and so it's kind of a common way of thinking What we're talking about here, but is the exact opposite where if you don't do anything you're going to lose, right? so you have to have you have to have be making decisions you have to be kind of pushing forward and You have to be thoughtful about what that is, right and then be nimble around when you're moving So so I think that's an understated thing too is if you've been in a corporate role for a while All the points you made are exactly correct and you can almost embrace that sort of risk aversion just not that you yourself

are risk -averse, but that you've just been living in that environment so long that it's kind of reflected upon you.

Brett Trainor (: 31:13

Yeah, no, I know. But probably I'll remember the one, the last big risk we took in corporate and end up either costing us a job or, you know, pushing yourself out or it just people don't like you rocking the boat. interesting. I want to ask you a question. I thought about this. I don't remember what I was listening to, but it's around enthusiasm and excitement. And I think that's part of the appeal when we're selling to small businesses. When you're excited.

about something, right? Because if you're not excited about what you're doing, corporate fine, you don't have to be excited. I think your boss wants to know you like what you're doing, but whatever. But here, when you're talking to potential customers or networking folks, people can hear the enthusiasm and excitement in your voice. And I never really thought of it as value add, but the more I think, the more where I've been successful, it's when I am super excited or enthusiastic about something that moves the needle.

I'm just curious. I'm the first person I've talked to about this is you. So I'm curious if you see that. Is it similar or am I just

Joe Manganelli (: 32:14

Thank you.

Yeah, I think, I think a hundred percent. And maybe I have like kind of two points that one is in my work with calculate, I was working with a lot of founders who were very passionate about what they were building. And so even if my work in the context of their business, wasn't kind of the most compelling on kind of the accounting organization side, it was always really exciting to be along with them for their journeys. And I always felt like, you know, in part, their wins were partly my wins. They booked a new big customer. got, you know, something like that. So I think that stuff's really, really exciting. And then.

How does it translate to kind of you as an individual? How I always thought about it is there's almost two different, two sectors or groupings of jobs. There's sort of like maintenance jobs and there's building jobs. And I always got a lot of more value out of the building side of things. And a lot of corporate roles can just be maintenance roles, right? Where you're just kind of maintaining that status quo or whatever's going on.

And I always found that I myself get a lot of value when I'm, and I'm more excited about building something almost regardless of what it is. And, and maybe this is another message to the, to the audience where if you think about what you want to do, or maybe think about how you want to do it, right? I really loved building a business kind of regardless of what I was building.

I like accounting now that I've embraced it and kind of gotten into the space, but it's not something that I'm excited about or I want to be doing on Sunday afternoon, right? Like it's not a hobby of mine. you know, but I really love the building of a business and connecting people and that kind of incremental growth that comes with the elbow grease that you put into it.

Brett Trainor (: 33:52

Yeah, it's an interesting thought because now even thinking back to my corporate career, I thrived and loved either the build or fix, right? When I got brought in or brought in with somebody else to either build or fix something, those were the best. And then when we got to year two and it became the status quo or maintain, I just, wasn't, it was no, I didn't realize it at the time that it was no longer for me, but that's kind of the thing. So I'm just wondering too, thinking about escapees.

Joe Manganelli (: 34:03

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 34:21

Is it only out there for people that like to build and fix or is there a world out there for maintain? I mean, that's, I don't know.

Joe Manganelli (: 34:30

Yeah, I mean, I think it just comes in different forms. And maybe my broader point was around like figuring out how you like to work more than what you want to work on.

Brett Trainor (: 34:38

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 34:38

I was at a point in my career where I thought I really wanted to work in fashion retail businesses. And what I found out later is I'm really glad I didn't. The what versus the how. And so I think there's sort of room for everyone out there in terms of how, on their escapee journey and kind of where they end up or what they want to do. I would say it just depends. If you're this person who maybe likes a little bit more of a controlled environment, a little closer to that maintenance versus building something a little bit more.

out there, like maybe you're going to build a smaller business that's higher value and really focuses on value to each individual like customer or client versus someone who like is really thriving on that building side and almost for their own like kind of you know value self -worth or whatever they need to be seeing that constant change like that might be someone who needs a little bit more of a high growth business right those are different trajectories but both can be on on sort of the escapee trajectory.

Brett Trainor (: 35:16

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 35:35

Yeah, and go where you're comfortable. You want to be uncomfortable, but yeah, I think where it's natural, think we do have those tendencies, which is a good point.

Joe Manganelli (: 35:41

Yeah. And you need that sweet spot to know where, you know, that you know, that you are going to provide value, right? If you're totally uncomfortable, like I'm not a great swimmer. I do not belong in a triathlon. Right? Like I know that, like that would be very uncomfortable for me, but I'm not doing anyone any favors by, by put going into a triathlon. Right? You know, I think there's a maybe element there, like, you know, you may be a good runner, but not a good swimmer. So focus on running a little bit more, but maybe run in a way that's uncomfortable so that you know, you're growing.

Brett Trainor (: 36:08

Yeah, it's such a good point. It's a true story too, because I'm not a big swimmer either. I like the water, not at this. But I, I did one triathlon. I've done one in my life. Super uncomfortable. got through it, but I also knew that wasn't the uncomfortable I wanted week in and week out or race after race. So I'm like, all right, I checked the box on that one, but that's not the path that I'm heading down. As much as I like it, I'm just, it would take me too much work to get comfortable in that uncomfortable setting. So.

Joe Manganelli (: 36:18

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 36:25

Yeah, there we go.

Joe Manganelli (: 36:32

failing.

Joe Manganelli (: 36:37

Yeah, failing fast in a different form.

Brett Trainor (: 36:40

Exactly. As long as there was the lifeboat out there, I was going to be okay.

Joe Manganelli (: 36:44

Yeah

Brett Trainor (: 36:47

Well, Joe, mean, I can't believe time has flown by. Really appreciate you coming back on. I'll have to bring you back onto a third one once either you sell the software company or figure out what you're doing. But, you know, I think you had a ton of really good and actionable advice on this. So any parting thoughts before we let you go? And two, what's the best place now for folks to connect with you and find out more about you?

Joe Manganelli (: 36:49

Yeah.

Joe Manganelli (: 36:55

Yeah. Let's go. We'll make.

Joe Manganelli (: 37:12

Yeah, for sure. So I would say my parting words are that if you're on the fence about making the jump, just do it. The worst thing that happens to you is you fail and you go back to working a corporate role, which is to me is a better place than you are today because at least you know you gave it a try, right? And you can hang your hat on that. So that would kind of be my parting thought. then, yeah, the best place to reach me is with Amalgam.

So the email address is joe .amalgam .me. yeah, we'd love to talk about accounting software or if you want to just talk about the stuff that we're talking about here, I'm always willing to have a conversation, have a cup of coffee or something like that.

Brett Trainor (: 37:57

Awesome, and we will put that in the show notes as well. Yeah, I'm sure there may be a few folks out there thinking, hey, I got my company to this point. I'd to hear from Joe of how I can take it to the next level. So maybe we'll create some more opportunities out there. You can help become that guide or the coach for the next stage of helping businesses.

Joe Manganelli (: 38:13

Yeah. Sometimes the answers don't, right? Like I think there's a lot of humility and understanding that you're not the right fit. And I had one of my clients a long time ago was someone who he knew he could build a business to $2 million. And then he knew that he had no business being a part of it after that. you know, I think having that, that knowing yourself is really important too, because maybe like I said to myself, it was sort of time was up for me to continue to run that business. so.

Brett Trainor (: 38:19

Yeah, let's get flying.

Joe Manganelli (: 38:43

and I still stand by that now.

Brett Trainor (: 38:46

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Joe. Appreciate it. Like I said, super insightful. We got all the good actionable takeaways from this one. So we'll be back in touch. I joke with some other folks and not joke, need to do where are they now? Like a six month update is of the guests that come on the podcast. you're not going to be too far away because I think there's a lot of, again, good stories, the escapee one data version, figuring out what you really like, don't like, what you want to do. Now you're at two.

Joe Manganelli (: 38:53

Yeah, great.

Joe Manganelli (: 39:03

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 39:15

sure at some point we'll be at three, but the good thing is you get to choose your own path, right?

Joe Manganelli (: 39:21

Absolutely. No, this has been great to be back on Brett and looking forward to the next time. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 39:26

Sounds good, have a great rest of your day.