Escape Without Breaking: Shelley McIntyre’s 3-Phase Framework for Leaving Corporate

Brett Trainor (: 00:01

Hi, Shelley McIntyre. Welcome back to the Corporate Escapee podcast. I always like to start throwing that in. I've learned because when folks are tuning in and they don't know if they just hear the first name, it's hard for them to Google and see who we're actually talking to. So now I make sure I throw in the full name as I'm welcoming back. Now, anybody that's been listening to the podcast knows you were on five or six episodes ago talking about if it's not a hell yes, it's a no and

Shelley McIntyre (: 00:05

Thank you, Brett Trainer. It's nice to see you.

Shelley McIntyre (: 00:16

yeah. Yep.

Shelley McIntyre (: 00:21

Nice.

Brett Trainor (: 00:30

You know, my, my entire intent with that episode was to spend more time with kind of your framework. you work with corporate GenXers getting out. So I really wanted to understand your process, but we went so deep with your escape journey and the conversations that I felt, you know, let's just break it into two episodes. And so this is a first after 300 episodes, we're actually doing a two part episode where we, take the journey on one and we'll, get into the.

the coaching or the actionable side today. So anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to come back and visit with us.

Shelley McIntyre (: 01:03

Yeah, that's great. And I hope you do more two-parters. I think that's super worthwhile. You've got a lot of really great guests. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 01:07

And in hindsight, I probably should have done this because everybody has an escape journey. But sometimes I bring in the subject matter experts and then I feel like we rushed through the subject matter expert part of it. But so live and learn. That's the only way this gets better. if you're out there listening, make sure you like this episode so you can reinforce that you want to hear more of these. anyway, so I highly encourage folks to go back and listen to the first episode. Really good.

Shelley McIntyre (: 01:21

Absolutely.

Brett Trainor (: 01:34

But today, like said, I'm curious. We've had a couple of conversations and I know we're in pretty good alignment and I'm always curious to learn, right? What other people are doing, you how you're working with corporate GenXers, what are you seeing, et cetera. So why don't we dive right in and, you know, kind of share, well, when did you start coaching? And then I'll let you kind of give the overview and then we can dive into your methodology if you want to call it that.

Shelley McIntyre (: 02:00

Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, I started coaching five years ago. And as we talked about in the first episode that you and I did together, I started as a grief coach, expanded out to any kind of big life or job transition, because it turns out that all of them come with grief. And who I found was really coming to me were these burned out Gen Xers who kind of had forgotten who they were.

they were navigating this, corporate miasma and were unhappy and twitchy and ready to get out. And so I just kind of naturally began to focus more on that group because they're the folks that I understand really well too because I've been there just like you. Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 02:51

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, nodding my head as you're talking about describing people like that. That was me five, five, five years ago, but six years ago, or maybe even longer, we're starting to feel that. And before we go, I just want to share, you know, within our collective, had one of our members share that they were rolling off a client, right? So the engagement ended and she was really sad about it. And we, you just mentioned grief and that it even does carry over into

Shelley McIntyre (: 03:00

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 03:19

the escapee world and even though it's business and we lose and I shared in there that, you know, when somebody leaves the collective, I want a member feel, I feel bad about it. And so it just triggered me as you were saying that it's all grief. You're absolutely right. Right. I'm assuming that's natural and normal. We just need to process it. Right.

Shelley McIntyre (: 03:41

Totally. And you know, there's something really important in there that you just mentioned that we feel it on both sides, right? Certainly there's a lot of grief when you leave corporate because you're losing structure and routine and accolades and a community. But when we get out into figuring out the next thing, what we're really supposed to be doing, there will be relationships there too. So we can't shy away from trying new stuff to avoid

the moments of grief that will come, but could we look at that as this amazing recognition that we have a connection with people, right? We don't grieve things that weren't valuable to us. So as we embark on something new, can we focus on the relationships that we get?

to form in this new context that is more meaningful and authentic to us.

Brett Trainor (: 04:42

Yeah, you said it a lot better than I did in my summary back in the email. And was kind of my point is the good thing is that it wasn't a transaction for you. It's not a transaction for me. It is really a relationship that we're trying to build. We're trying to build this for the long game and whatever the reason, right? The business, it's not performance. It's none of those things. But when it ends, there is still a part of the personal side that it's hard to get out of the way. I've been doing this for five years and it's still hard to...

It's much easier for me to do it now, but it's still hard for me not to take it personally, right? As it changes. True.

Shelley McIntyre (: 05:15

Well, because you're a person, Brett. Like, I think this is one of the traps of corporate life, that we're conditioned that it's just business, man. Don't take it personally. But we are all persons. It's all personal. All business is personal. And how refreshing to get out of that world and enter into a new place where

Brett Trainor (: 05:30

Yeah, that's so true.

Shelley McIntyre (: 05:43

It's personal on your terms. Like I look back, I've coached dozens of clients, right? I miss all of them. When they finish their programs with me, it's like a punch in the heart. I'm so happy for them and I want them to go on and be successful and amazing. And I think about all of them all the time and how lovely and what a-

Brett Trainor (: 05:46

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 06:08

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 06:11

privilege it is to make that connection with people.

Brett Trainor (: 06:14

Yeah, it's funny because I put it in the context, right? Because we've members that get more settled, right? And start growing their business. And yeah, we see less of them within the community. I'm like, ah, so I don't know if it's just missing part. I think you're absolutely right. They do become a part of your day to day and all of a it's not as visible or they pop back in. haven't seen them for a month. You're like, hey, great to see you. So yeah, I mean,

Shelley McIntyre (: 06:40

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 06:43

I didn't mean to take us down that rabbit hole early, but I thought it was kind of timely based on, you know, literally this was a yesterday that this, came up. So anyway, so good segue back into how, how did you, you said you started in grief coaching and then moved into the, gen X room. there a, I don't know, we covered a little bit in the last episode, but was it a goal of this is what I want to do is this is who I want to coach. Are you just, this is where the opportunity was. And I really liked this.

Shelley McIntyre (: 06:51

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 07:13

And then part two of that question is that, all right, I'm going to do this. How did you get started? Right? How did you go from our first conversation to here's, here's what I don't want to call it curriculum, but a program looks like when they work with you, how did you, um, what was that process like?

Shelley McIntyre (: 07:30

Yeah. So first, I think how I got to this audience, it was so natural because this is the language that I speak. And I know how to speak the corporate language and I know how to speak the, you know, the Gen X ethos language of, know, we are raised by wolves and we are resilient and independent and do not put us down. and I would, and I wrote about that a lot.

I do most of my writing on my website and on LinkedIn. And then people just started finding me on LinkedIn and saying, I think you're talking to me. I think we might need to work together. that it kind of happened pretty naturally. And then in terms of how I work with people, that also was an evolution that really came about just through deep listening to what people were really talking about. They weren't coming in saying,

I need a new job right now. Because if they were saying that, then they would go find a career coach. And that would be a totally appropriate thing to do. But what they were coming to me saying was, I don't remember what I like. I can't remember how to feel joy. And I feel like this is a slog that's never going to end. And I don't know what's next. And I have to figure that out. But first, I have to figure me out.

Brett Trainor (: 08:55

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm curious, did you see what the folks you've worked with? Because again, I've done a lot of reflection now over the last five, maybe not the first two years out, because it's all head down, go, go, go. But now I'm thinking back, you know, at some point I stopped wanting to climb the corporate ladder, right? mean, right, wrong or indifferent, if you're trying to climb, you at least have purpose. And we could argue we did it for too long. But I think at some point we all hit that point where we're just, we're not interested in the next promotion anymore, those type of things.

Shelley McIntyre (: 09:16

Sure.

Brett Trainor (: 09:24

Is that kind of the tipping point you're seeing with folks when they're coming to you? is it, is that, I oversimplifying that a little bit?

Shelley McIntyre (: 09:32

No, I think that is one of the scenarios. Like people are like, you know what? I don't care about the ladder. Like this ladder was constructed by somebody else. Me climbing it makes other people rich at the top. And I don't want to play that game anymore. So there's that. And then there are other people who come in saying, I climbed it and I'm done and I'm at the top and I'm lonely and I feel isolated.

and my work feels meaningless. So there are different types of wake-up calls I think that people can get, or they're further down the ladder and they're realizing, this ladder was not even meant for me. I don't even have the opportunity to climb this ladder. So either I keep staying in this punishing environment or I step off completely.

Brett Trainor (: 10:04

That's interesting.

Brett Trainor (: 10:16

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 10:26

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm starting to hear people talking about stepping down the ladder now too, right? Getting back out of leadership positions and just doing an individual contributor role and make the salary, but leave the job at the office. like, you know what? I never would have thought, I mean, I could, I don't know, it probably wouldn't be for me, but I get that thinking now for sure.

Shelley McIntyre (: 10:47

Yeah, because people are voting for their life. They're voting for it have a more balanced life and go outside and interact with their families. And this work-life balance thing is kind of a myth at certain levels.

Brett Trainor (: 10:51

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 11:05

I think you're absolutely right. It reminds me, I don't know if you saw the movie American Beauty with a Kevin Spacey character. He's driving through, I don't know, with Jack in the Box or whatever, and he applies for the job. He's like, I want the job with the least remonted responsibility as possible. Right? I mean, just, was done with the corporate. blew up. I mean, there's so many, you know, synergies or analogies with some of these movies that were funny at the time. Now, God, it's a little too close to home based on where we're at. But it was that thing. It was just, I just wanted my life by the car I want.

Shelley McIntyre (: 11:09

yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 11:35

and start living life again.

Shelley McIntyre (: 11:37

Yeah, and what you're bringing up is really important because in those movies and the stories that we hear, people get to a breaking point before they make a move, right? How can we make the move before we break? How can we experience pre-traumatic growth? We don't necessarily want post-traumatic growth. I mean, that's going to come, but how do we get the growth without the trauma?

Brett Trainor (: 11:51

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 12:04

Yeah, that's a good question. Again, we, should have met you five years ago. You may have been able to help me get, cause I tell the story because in corporate, I got to the point where I pushed back and, know, usually in corporate early in your career, you you, you'd say your piece, you move on and just go with whatever the management or the company's decision was. I had two scenarios where I just.

I stuck to my guns. like, I know this isn't right. I'm not going to just give in. Pulled me off of one project. Another one they wanted to send me to manage a small project out on the West Coast just to hit a arbitrary billable numbers. People in consulting will say it's not arbitrary, whatever. But again, I said no. And I don't think they were used to anybody saying no. And so I knew my time was going to be limited at that point. But I think that was my breaking point without knowing it was, I was at a breaking point.

Shelley McIntyre (: 12:55

What made you say no in that moment? Do you remember?

Brett Trainor (: 12:59

a good question. think part of it was resentment that they didn't appreciate the fact that I brought in a bunch of new business, but were still making me hit this billable hours on the other side that not all revenue was created equal. And it just, I think it was just done with the playing that corporate game of to say the right thing, do the right thing. Right. It's funny how you can be

perfect employee six weeks earlier and then six weeks later, all of sudden you're not material for them anymore. And so I think I just, it was just probably a culmination of everything. And I just got to that point that, you know, life I was, you know, like I said, I told people, my wife told me a couple of years after when I was doing my solo job, obviously my demeanor was I'm happier. Everything was good. She's like, what the hell was the matter with you? And I couldn't honestly tell you back then on the surface, everything would have looked fine. Right. Good job. I mean,

Shelley McIntyre (: 13:33

Mm-hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 13:55

definitely kind of liked the work that I was doing and kids were all fine. So everything looked good, but obviously something was inside of me that was, wasn't right. And so it, like I said, it's easy to reflect backwards, but I, yeah, if we can figure out how to help people get out of that before they hit that, that breaking point, it would make it easier.

Shelley McIntyre (: 14:06

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 14:17

Yeah, that's right. So what I do with people, the first step is kind of unmasking your true identity. Like, who are you under there? There is still a you under there that isn't the shiny polished person that goes to work and hits the numbers and talks about EBITDA and KPIs, right? There's like, there's a jargon-less version of you. And how do we tap into your values?

and your true essence, who you are when you're operating at your best, to start to peel back those layers, those corporate layers, to take that mask off and get back to who you are. Sometimes in that process, it can feel a little vulnerable because you've been wearing this protective cloak for so long. And it was protecting you really well through

jargon and a particular corporate culture and maybe you're the mean guy at work, but you're actually not a mean guy. So it can feel a little exposing, but when we tap into that real authentic core of who you are, you get this, you get a foundation building moment.

Brett Trainor (: 15:37

Yeah, that's so true. Right. And I do, talk about this a lot. Again, not as well as you are, but you know, it is though that we did have that, that corporate mask and we had to pretend to be somebody else. you know, the other thing I find interesting, at least, I probably had 500 conversations with folks at various stages and not one of them really ever enjoyed the

the corporate politics piece of it, right? And you know the people that were good at it. They're the ones that are probably in the C-suites now because they figured out how to manipulate and do all those things. Everybody that I talked to, and my guess is your audience, is the same. Just never enjoyed that part of it. You did it, but that wasn't who you were. It wasn't who you were driving. And then once you get this little taste outside of it, you don't want to go back to that person, right? And I didn't realize I was even that person until I was out.

Shelley McIntyre (: 16:25

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 16:30

I'm sure that makes sense, right?

Shelley McIntyre (: 16:32

Mm-hmm. for sure. Because you couldn't afford to realize you were that person, right? The stakes are really high and the whole system reinforces you staying in it and it rewards you for staying in it. So how could you realize that you're actually a different person on the outside until you get outside? Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 16:41

Yes.

Brett Trainor (: 16:50

Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't know about you, but again, same thing. Now that I've people haven't knew me from corporate and haven't known me or talked to me in three or four years, they would, I think they'd swear I'm a different person, right? Probably some of the same core stuff, right? But there's just a whole different side and you know, life's a lot easier when you don't have to pretend. Right.

Shelley McIntyre (: 17:11

Yeah, and I get that people would see you as different, but what I experience a lot with my clients is that they're coming back to the original versions of themselves. They're not departing into something new, they're returning. So how do we facilitate that return? So we start with unmasking your true identity, then we really get super clear about what the fears are.

Brett Trainor (: 17:24

Yeah, yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 17:38

You know, what are you going to, you know, what do you stand to lose? What are the doubts? How do we reawaken your curiosity so that you can kind of build this new foundation that you will use as a platform to go explore. And curiosity is a big one. I just wrote about this, that burnout and

Brett Trainor (: 17:38

Good.

Shelley McIntyre (: 18:06

that corporate mask can dampen curiosity and it can dampen it to such a degree that we might conclude that we're not curious people.

Brett Trainor (: 18:16

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 18:17

And we are all naturally curious, but again, those stakes don't reward our curiosity. Like if you've been in a corporate environment where you get curious, like, hey, why are we still doing it this way? Why couldn't we try this other way? And you get your hand slapped every time. Well, then over time, you're going to get trained to just not find out and not ask the questions.

Brett Trainor (: 18:33

Yep.

Brett Trainor (: 18:41

Yeah, it's so true. And again, I started writing about my journey as well with this and what's kind of that spark was. And it was the curiosity or excitement, enthusiasm. I haven't quite been able to put the actual, but you know, cause I started the podcast five years ago while I was still in corporate and I couldn't tell you why. mean, I know why, I had a bucket list to write a book. The editor said, you know what, you should start a podcast and start a podcast. But I didn't realize how that tied into everything else.

But that just opened the door, right? To talk to new authors and getting over back, getting over the fear of hitting record and doing some. So yeah, everything you just said, I'm like, yep, yep. Check, check, check. And I think it, oh God, sorry. I was going to say the, the, the curiosity. think that's again, when I started and started working with folks, it was, I thought it was going to be all the tactics and strategies. How do you get the right offer and how the discoveries? No, it's right. It's.

Shelley McIntyre (: 19:20

Yep. Yep. Yeah. then, go ahead.

Brett Trainor (: 19:40

How do get the confidence back? Cause it's amazing the number of folks that have super successful corporate careers to find however you want it by. They lived and survived corporate for 20 years. It was successful that are now doubting themselves, not only as going solo or escaping, but also starting to doubt what they're doing in corporate. And I think, right. So I know that's sort of tied to the curiosity phase, but that's where people, promise I'm getting to a point. So right. People say, follow your passion.

Shelley McIntyre (: 20:08

Mm.

Brett Trainor (: 20:08

I'm more of a take a step back and find something that gets you more excited than you were before. And that's how I look back at my five year journey post corporate. Everything's just gotten me a little bit more excited. So I know I'm moving in the right direction, but not one, maybe this, what I'm doing now will be the ultimate, but who knows in two years, maybe there's something else that that's pushing me, but I've moved to more of the stepping stone approach to that than going all in on my passion. Cause I don't know what I'm a hundred percent passionate about.

Shelley McIntyre (: 20:32

Love it.

Shelley McIntyre (: 20:37

Yeah, I feel like, I think we talked about this before, this idea of having a passion feels so punitive, right? It's okay if you don't have a passion. So there's two things that I want to touch on that based on what you just said. So one of them is kind of un... So you're going to design this next chapter on your terms, right? And if it's a stepping stone, great. If it's a hard right or a hard left pivot, great.

Brett Trainor (: 20:45

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 21:06

But one of the important parts of this phase is uncovering these dreams that you had that were dormant. Like, you you used to play guitar and you thought you were gonna be really good, but then you set it down, you didn't pick it up for 25 years. Or you thought you wanted to go into construction and you love building things, but your job got so busy and you haven't put your hand on a piece of wood in a long time. So there are things that are still back there that can be revived.

So uncovering what has been laid to rest that is waiting for you. Like you can see, you know, a bunch of construction tools kind of shimmering, waiting for you to notice them. And then the other that I feel like relates back to this dampened curiosity, but is aided by your incredible ability as a corporate warrior to perform a role.

Brett Trainor (: 21:49

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 22:07

So you got really good at performance, whether it's being nice to the jerk in the office or managing up, right? You got good at performing. This is going to sound bizarre, but you can perform curiosity. If you don't feel naturally curious yet, and your podcast is an excellent example of this. So let's say you started your podcast and you were like, I don't know what I'm doing.

Brett Trainor (: 22:09

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 22:35

I guess I'm gonna talk to this person. I don't know what to ask. And maybe part of you felt like you weren't really all that curious yet, but you had to get on mic and act curious. And if you can trick yourself into performing curiosity and saying, okay, well, guess I'm gonna ask these questions. And you ask them, the other person's gonna say something surprising that makes you go, what?

Brett Trainor (: 22:48

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 23:03

Wait a second, let me ask you more about that. And it's gonna actually activate your natural curiosity. So it's okay if you go into something pretending to be interested, as long as you follow through and get the information because something is gonna spark there for you.

Brett Trainor (: 23:10

And.

Brett Trainor (: 23:22

God, so good. Honestly, you're like deconstructing my path because that's exactly right. With the podcast, I was more scared to do it. I wanted to do it, but I can tell you, it wasn't a curiosity that was driving it at the time. It felt like more something I should do. And again, I'm back, I'm not sure why, but it did start to unlock the curiosity because then once, you know, was a lot of the friends that I knew that came on the podcast as a favor to get started.

But then when I started to connect with new people, just brand new world, new people, new questions, new learnings, and then I started to get connected with authors. So I read books to get ready for them. And all of a sudden my world of learning went from nothing for 20 years or limited to five years. I've read more books, talked to more people, have done more learning in the last five years than I had probably the last 30 years combined. Easily, I'm sure of that, back at it. So now you're spot on if you can just...

get yourself to take that step, it opens up a different world for sure.

Shelley McIntyre (: 24:27

Yeah, and you expanded your own world, led by your curiosity and interest. And that can happen for everybody, right? It's a world expanding practice. And this is kind of the third phase of where I go with clients. It's devising these tiny experiments because you can't think your way to the next act. it has to be these

Brett Trainor (: 24:37

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 24:56

practices that you do with your body out in the world. It can't be you sitting there typing and coming up with the next great idea. You got to get out there and talk to people. But these mini experiments are low stakes ways of trying on identities and practices and jobs and creative ventures. And these can be as small as you go take

Brett Trainor (: 25:08

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 25:25

one class. You sign up for a woodworking workshop. You join a writer's club. Like these are small, but they're going to put you in communities with other people who love that thing. And being exposed to other people who love it helps you, first of all, let down your defenses. And it's not a cringe moment if you let yourself love it too around other people who love it.

Brett Trainor (: 25:27

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 25:52

And also try on the idea of like, do I feel like, like, do I want to hang out with these people? I'm in a room full of writers. And do I feel like, I really kind of like these people. I want to hang out with them more. Or do you, do I feel like, I don't think this is actually the right environment for me, but you have to feel it. This is an embodied practice.

Brett Trainor (: 26:14

Yeah, so good. And so true, right? I that's, I started hanging out with the authors and I've got this creative bug now that maybe I've had the whole time. I didn't realize I had it now, but I'm going to explore it. I mean, you can argue the podcast is creative, but I mean, think.

Beyond that, think it's, I love singer songwriters. I'm studying them right now. Why? I don't know, but I'm just super fascinated by what their process is to do it. yeah, can we go back? the one thing I think I kind of took us around a rabbit hole you were talking about is the fears, right? Cause I think the fears is, was, I'm still surprised by how big of a blocker that is. I guess I shouldn't be, but it's, it still is that.

founded or not founded, doesn't matter, perception is reality. If you have these fears, it's going to keep you from doing something. So I'm just really curious about your perspective and how you work with people. like I I wish I had a magic or a silver bullet sometimes to get people through it. But

Shelley McIntyre (: 27:11

Yeah. I think it's about, it's really about loss mitigation. So if we have these fears, it's usually a fear that we're going to lose something. And we talked about last time, this, this self-determination triangle where, where a lot of the fears stem from a loss of comp competence, autonomy, or connection, right? We were afraid that we're going to lose something that we're really good at.

We won't be able to make decisions over our domains and we're going to lose important relationships with people. So in that phase, kind of disarm fear and build your foundation phase, we really get specific about the actual fears that are there and start taking really practical steps to address them early. Like if you feel like you're going to be destitute,

even though your financial planner is like, it's okay, you can go. What data does, not your brain, what data does your heart need in order to believe it? Maybe you're getting information in a way that is not believable to you. And maybe it's actually sitting down with your partner or running through a budget or

Brett Trainor (: 28:24

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 28:37

Just getting a clearer picture on what your finances actually are for you to calm down and go, I actually do have some wiggle room here.

Brett Trainor (: 28:46

Yeah, it's definitely easier said than done in some cases because as you're talking about the financial because my wife is kind of that way. She's the worrier. And but looking at the financial, I mean, I can map it out from six ways to Sunday to say, hey, we're actually in good shape, right? Empty nest, you know, the two big expenses we have left are two weddings, two daughters getting married. That's really it. I mean, you think about all of our life's things that we've had. mean,

Shelley McIntyre (: 29:07

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 29:13

insurance, everything else that we've got all the safety things covered. now in paper, we're in really good spot, but in her mind, she can't get over the fear of that. so again, it's just, we're both working through, again, we each have our own different sets, but I mean, it's a great example of even though all the numbers tell you, the financial planners tell you there's something in the back of your brain that says, I don't know if it's the unknown.

Shelley McIntyre (: 29:28

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 29:39

I don't know, but it's interesting you picked that one because, we're going through it.

Shelley McIntyre (: 29:44

Yeah, and that worry is protective, right? She wants to make sure that she is safe and you are safe and everybody is safe in the family. So it's not a matter of quashing the fear and expecting it to go away completely. It's how can you have some additional data points? How can you soften your heart a little bit and still act?

Brett Trainor (: 29:49

Yeah, yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 30:12

So can you do it scared?

Brett Trainor (: 30:15

Yeah,

Shelley McIntyre (: 30:16

So there's a mitigation strategy, right? So what can we do to not necessarily lessen the fear, but start putting plans in place that allow us to account for the losses that we might experience when we leave corporate. So like, let's say your whole social network is at work and most of those people are going to go away, whether you believe that or not, most of them will vanish.

How can you start investing in your community outside of work before you even leave? So can we put some of those mechanisms into place so that even though it's still scary to like the thought of all the things that you might lose when you leave corporate, you're going to something. You already have the writers group. You already have the pickleball team. You already have people waiting for you on the outside who are saying, dude, why are you still working?

Brett Trainor (: 31:16

Yeah, makes such sense. And it's so true because now I'm thinking about some of the other, I'm calling blockers, but hesitancies from folks. One is the financial, right? If you're six figures or 200K per year, going from zero to building the 200, if that salary disappears, it's the Grand Canyon. In theory, it's not, but yeah, it's getting beyond that blocker of that's what it is. And part of it is,

Shelley McIntyre (: 31:39

Totally.

Brett Trainor (: 31:46

it's going to go away at some point whether you want it or not. it's part of it as a planning process. I guess that would be the, yeah, losing your salary would make sense. And the other one is insurance, which it's, it's, this one still boggles me a little bit because, know, my, my flip on this was, you know, paycheck, it was part of it. I moved more looking at it from a cashflow perspective. I'm like, I know I need this project to cover,

Shelley McIntyre (: 31:49

That's right.

Shelley McIntyre (: 32:04

Mm-hmm.

Brett Trainor (: 32:15

Insurance and I need this one to cover mortgage and then everything else, you know Just kind of build the cash flow. We're in a corporate world It just keeps coming in right at the paychecks coming in and you just live your life and do things and I'm sure there's folks out there saying I always look to cash flow. I didn't I mean I knew it but it wasn't it it was a mindset shift. So I'm sure you get the insurance question as part of it

Shelley McIntyre (: 32:35

Mm-hmm.

Shelley McIntyre (: 32:38

Yeah, it's still, you know, I was born in Canada and lived there for my first 20 years. And then coming here and seeing how tied medical insurance was to employment, it was dismaying. And the fact that there are medical bankruptcies, like it's not, it's not a good system. However, there are alternatives out there. It doesn't have to mean really expensive Cobra, which

Brett Trainor (: 32:52

Yes.

Shelley McIntyre (: 33:08

only lasts for a short amount of time, but there are options to get covered by insurance. And it just has to be part of your economic plan for whatever you're going to do next. Sometimes it's as simple as charge a little more.

so you can cover it.

Brett Trainor (: 33:29

Yeah, it's, it's, well, I don't want, let's keep you going down your path. Cause I think the way you're working is perfectly systematic. And again, like I said, if you would have met me five years ago, you could have saved me a year out of this, at least a year out of this journey, thinking through it because part of what I, and maybe you'll get to, or I don't want to fast forward too far, but is, um, once you get a taste of the freedom, right? Then all of a sudden everything else kind of falls into place. You still have the fears, but, um,

Shelley McIntyre (: 33:43

Yeah.

Brett Trainor (: 33:59

Anyway, I don't want, what's your, how do you take folks from that next phase?

Shelley McIntyre (: 34:03

Yeah, so we've done, so now we're in like the micro experiment phase, right? We're trying on different things. And now you've got this launch pad for deeper exploration. So let's say it is, I don't know, you've decided to really explore becoming an electrician. And now you get to decide, can you,

Can you take some of those steps before you even leave? Can you sign up for the night school for some prerequisites before you go into an apprenticeship program? Is there a paid apprenticeship program that you can do? Like what could you do in tandem while you're still working so that you have some kind of bridge time? And for some people, that's going to be great. Other people are like, nope, I'm out of there and I'm going to go all in on this thing. Fantastic.

Not everybody will be in that position. But in that bridge time, you get to deepen your learning on something new. You get to start maybe delegating a little bit more at work, creating an exit plan, which you can call a development of the juniors plan. You can call it whatever you want, right? But you can start.

lessening a negative impact of your departure while you're still at work. And that will help you feel better too, because I talked to a lot of people who were like, I don't want to leave my coworkers high and dry. I'll feel like I'm abandoning them. They're going to have to take on so much work. Well, make the plan.

Brett Trainor (: 35:48

Yeah, makes sense, makes perfect sense. Even though I'm more jaded and say, Vin, that you don't know corporate anything, but yes, your coworkers that are gonna be stuck behind that, that makes perfect sense, yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 35:50

Teach people, train folks.

Shelley McIntyre (: 35:58

It's the people. Yeah. Yeah, and people think about their legacies too, right? Some folks are like, I hate this place. I don't care about the legacy. I'm giving two weeks notice and I'm leaving. That's fine. That's one strategy. Other people are like, I built this program. I don't want this program to die on the vine when I walk out the door. Great. How are you going to ensure that it doesn't die on the vine? What?

Brett Trainor (: 36:02

Huh, interesting.

Brett Trainor (: 36:21

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 36:27

mechanisms can you put in place now to make sure that it lasts? Now, there's some control that you have to give up, right? Because as soon as they walk, you walk out the door, your whole department could be reorg'd, half of them could be let go, the program could be canceled. Because it's still corporate America and they don't owe you anything and you don't owe them anything.

Brett Trainor (: 36:43

Right. Right.

Brett Trainor (: 36:50

That's the thing we got to shift mindset. We still think we owe corporate and we don't, right? We got to, it's transactional at best. mean, I get not, I'm saying do as I say, not as I do, but right. It's easier said than done, but it's true. We got to flip that mindset. Even if you're going to stay, how do you get the most out of it? That while the company is still getting the most out of you.

Shelley McIntyre (: 37:00

Hahaha.

Shelley McIntyre (: 37:10

Yes, and especially if they're the ones who have caused you burnout, why is your loyalty going there instead of to yourself and your family and your future?

Brett Trainor (: 37:24

Yeah, again, I asked myself after the fact many times, what was I thinking? Right? So it was, it was for sure. So, I know I got to be respectful of your time. get a hard stop coming. If we did we, what was the, was that the, I didn't want to, there was a big finale to this. I mean, it sounds like if you figure this out, you're, this is the way to run. So you get to this experiment, either you're going all in or not.

Shelley McIntyre (: 37:27

Yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 37:36

I do.

Brett Trainor (: 37:51

Is this just then you're starting, this is the process, right? Where you're going to experiment if it's not it, you're going to figure something else out and just keep going, right?

Shelley McIntyre (: 37:54

This is the process. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, it's really setting this like the end part of the whole process is setting the stage and getting you as ready as you possibly can to make a leap.

Brett Trainor (: 38:12

Yeah. And I think it's so true. I wish I would have paid more attention to the mental side of this. Cause I think that's probably 80 % of it, if not more, right? As the fear getting over it, just taking action. mean, there's a whole other segment we could do on taking action versus waiting for something to happen, but we'll leave it at that for now. Shelley, this was awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective on this and

Shelley McIntyre (: 38:27

yeah.

Shelley McIntyre (: 38:34

Absolutely.

Brett Trainor (: 38:35

Again, remind folks that are new to this episode, what's the best way to connect with you, find more information, how they can work with you. I will definitely put them in the show notes, but why don't you let us know.

Shelley McIntyre (: 38:44

Great, yeah, I would love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn. That's the best way to find my writing and you can DM me. And I also wanna offer your listeners, I'm gonna offer like 10 free discovery calls for listeners of your podcast if they DM me on LinkedIn.

Brett Trainor (: 39:01

Awesome.

Brett Trainor (: 39:05

I'm going to move that up to the top of the show notes. So I'm going to hold you to that Penel. That's awesome. I appreciate you doing that and take her up on it because again, you saw this was a therapy session for me and I'm out of it and it was helpful. yeah, I'm going figure out how to bring you back on a regular basis just because I think we obviously have an alignment and a shared vision for trying to get folks out. like I said,

Shelley McIntyre (: 39:10

Cool.

Shelley McIntyre (: 39:16

Ha ha ha ha.

Brett Trainor (: 39:29

I enjoy every conversation we have. So we'll figure out how to make you more of a regular on the program, but I do appreciate you coming back and sharing your methodology with us.

Shelley McIntyre (: 39:34

Love it.

Shelley McIntyre (: 39:38

Great, thank you so much. It was so fun to talk to you as always. Okay.

Brett Trainor (: 39:41

always is. Thanks, Shelly.